Bruce Turkel interview - hearing from a branding guru
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You know, a lot of the classic advertising marketing men and women from yesteryear, they really struggled to connect and pivot and stay relevant and effective with a new generation of buyers and a new generation of buyer expectations. Well, my guest today, however, he kills it. He's one of the best in the business. I'm talking with my good friend, Bruce Turkell.
You can find Bruce Turkel at:
https://bruceturkel.com/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/bturkel/
https://www.instagram.com/bruceturkel/?hl=en
You can find David Avrin at
www.davidavrin.com
www.linkedin.com/in/davidavrin
www.twitter.com/DavidAvrin
www.facebook.com/therealdavidavrin
www.instagram.com/therealdavidavrin
Audio Transcript:
David Avrin: Welcome again to the customer experience advantage podcast. I am David Avrin. I'm thrilled today, one of my great friends, but also one of the best in the business, one of the best in business.
David Avrin: Just because he's a good guy and that shouldn't matter, but it does, because I think somebody who is a real study of of humanity and behavior and a great communicators I think there's a lot of people who.
David Avrin: Who can be good at something from an academic perspective can study it, but the people really in the trenches and the people who have.
David Avrin: Great conversation skills and understand the given take and that's just my own perception of it just because I know him well.
David Avrin: But he kills, it was a hit our Turkey brands we're going to talk about what's going on with that company as well, but let me give you a sort of a formal introduction.
David Avrin: And then we'll talk to him, he is a branding grew makes his clients brands more valuable he's helped big great brands along the lines of Nike discovery channel and HBO heard of them hasbro heard of them Bacardi PR took of it.
David Avrin: spoken for lots of great companies and over 400 times you've probably seen them on TV or 400 times on npr CNN fox business.
David Avrin: msnbc they turn to brewster kill, to give them insight and perspective and what does this mean whatever's going on in the news, especially as it pertains to business and consumer.
David Avrin: behavior he's also published four books on branding customer service, including, I want to make sure I get all of these right.
David Avrin: it's all about them, which I thought was a great first one, I want to talk about the shift in behavior and understanding.
David Avrin: What our messaging really needs to be and his brand new book, which I have right here for those who are watching the video version of this on my website.
David Avrin: Is that all there is come on really to greet book about third act it's a great book about what's next and and we're going to talk more about that as well Bruce welcome to the show.
Bruce Turkel: Thank you, David you know i'm glad you're recording this because I can't wait to play that introduction from my mother, she is going to love it Thank you.
David Avrin: My boy.
David Avrin: My boy.
Bruce Turkel: Oh, you know my mother said that sounds like my father, but.
David Avrin: It was originally.
Bruce Turkel: No longer with us, but for my grandfather but yes, I still i'm gonna play it for.
David Avrin: i'm sure they're very proud of you listen we've we've talked over the years, what I love about it, and some of the like I said, some of the biggest media outlets in the world, turn to Bruce.
David Avrin: For insight and perspective i'm going to talk today about.
David Avrin: what's changing the world, you know I even say for because because, of course, I speak as well, and we say I don't want to nobody wants a coven presentation or coven discussion.
David Avrin: we're over it, this this podcast a little evergreen depending on when you're listening or watching this.
David Avrin: But the post coven world is really significantly altered and shifted and along with that our language and how we are promoting products and services talk to me a little bit talk to us about.
David Avrin: about some of the shifts and changes you've seen and and what does it take to to be effective in this new world.
Bruce Turkel: Well, the most obvious shift is you said shifts in languages, who ever said hey David you're on mute before all of this.
Bruce Turkel: happened right now.
Bruce Turkel: Now we say it like 20 times a day right um I think you are very smart to say, nobody wants to hear about coven post coven.
Bruce Turkel: because everybody tends to ascribe the things that are happening to coven and the truth is coven was simply the catalytic mechanism coven was simply the thing that made it all happen at once, but the changes that we're all experiencing were already happening.
Bruce Turkel: You can just afford to kind of not pay attention, or only pay attention.
Bruce Turkel: To the ones you cared about so various things democratization of information, thanks to the Internet, thanks to all of these tools and.
Bruce Turkel: technology, we have every bit of information is available all the time tech everybody siri alexa ECHO Google cortana they know everything so.
Bruce Turkel: owning information in what used to be called the information age is a drastic change everybody has access number to globalization.
Bruce Turkel: Because of computerization the Internet so many different things, you can get anything anywhere anytime any price, any company, therefore, having some sort of.
Bruce Turkel: Control over what you sell and what people buy is old school no different than you know it used to be, if you put a moat around your Castle, you can were safe until someone invented the airplane and then most didn't do a lot.
Bruce Turkel: that's happened again, and then the third thing that I think is the other effective computerization which is everything today is essentially perfect every produced product is as good as it needs to be TV is don't break any more cars don't break any more.
Bruce Turkel: All right, you don't have to upgrade your iPhone until either a drop it or, be they come up with some.
Bruce Turkel: Really cool new feature like a third camera lens.
Bruce Turkel: That you just have to have, but everything works, and so, if you were building a business on having this very high level of quality and your offerings guess what you're no longer competitively relevant.
Bruce Turkel: And then, all these things are happening Kovac comes along and makes everybody stopped what they were doing.
Bruce Turkel: and spend a full two years reevaluating their business their wives their products, their income their revenue on and on and on, so once again coven didn't cause it coven just made it all noticeable to us instantly worldwide.
David Avrin: Well, in addition, Kobe also accelerated.
David Avrin: would have long been predicted about how we were going to do business we've been talking about this, since the jetsons.
Bruce Turkel: Right there's there's a great means that show the jetsons with.
David Avrin: With the different panels and somebody seeing the doctor online and somebody exercising to video and everything else.
David Avrin: And that was the future well it's now and all those things, probably we're going to happen, I was just speaking at a healthcare Internet conference.
David Avrin: And they were talking about, because of course they like shut down and had to reopen really quickly they couldn't take three months off it's a hospital, and so they talked about accelerating 10 years worth of technology in a matter of days.
Bruce Turkel: My wife well there was these patients every day found myself.
Bruce Turkel: All of a sudden at home and discovering telemedicine now her her office had telemedicine, but she had no reason to use it and her patients wanted to come see her.
Bruce Turkel: So she kept telling me oh i'm never going to use it it's all about hands on it's all about this right.
Bruce Turkel: until she couldn't leave the House and they still needed to have things like that and, by the way, I had to make sure that I stay out of her office, because you don't want to go into an office when your wife is doing telemedicine, with someone who is showing you.
Bruce Turkel: What the problem is you don't.
David Avrin: Look infected.
Bruce Turkel: yeah I promise you.
David Avrin: Well let's any but you and I have done this for a long time, because some of these technologies existed zoom existed before coven.
David Avrin: But because I travel because we travel we've got to be able to find a rite aid we've got to be able to find a walgreens or something for whatever ails us as we're on the road.
David Avrin: But it became more ubiquitous so many of these things, but also so many as you talked about conveniences but let's talk about language let's talk about those who were.
David Avrin: struggling to keep up or resistant to keep up whether you want to talk about cheese being moved or whatever else there's still a number of organizations and companies and well yeah well we're not Amazon.
David Avrin: Okay, so So how do you as you counsel your clients for something well we can't do what Amazon does we can't do what others do, how do we do we tweak it in terms of our language or do we tweak and in terms of our offering or our methodology or is a combination of all of the above.
Bruce Turkel: You remember the movie poltergeist.
Bruce Turkel: horse there was those things were appearing, so it was a scene.
Bruce Turkel: Where the little girl a little girl is watching TV there's only static on the TV they show it from.
Bruce Turkel: Right, you can find this clip on YouTube it's great.
David Avrin: and rich parents warmest lines ever yeah.
Bruce Turkel: The parents walk in and they see their daughter there a little girl, looking at the TV that's just snow gone.
Bruce Turkel: And she turns around and she.
Bruce Turkel: says.
Bruce Turkel: they're here and that's what you and I, as as marketing or messaging or.
Bruce Turkel: professionals have to explain to our clients, because they will say to you exactly what you said well we're not Amazon well we're not apple well, people are always going to want to come to us and you have to say no they're here.
Bruce Turkel: If you start that way.
Bruce Turkel: they'll shut you down, so what I always do is I talk about another industry, not their industry.
Bruce Turkel: and explain what happened to that industry, what happened to realtors who believe that the mls the multiple listing system was their savior because multiple listing controlled knowing what was for sale what the rates were all of that so.
David Avrin: We didn't have.
David Avrin: Access to it.
Bruce Turkel: Now you got zillow you have redfin now a realtor will tell you yeah those aren't really accurate doesn't matter.
Bruce Turkel: here's the metaphor, I love, I talked about a moat before or the Great Wall of China or offense it's created to keep people out right that's the obvious thing you have the moat nobody can get into your castle.
Bruce Turkel: But it's also created to keep people in, and if you have depended on the moat the wall, the fence, the control of information, whatever it is, all of a sudden.
Bruce Turkel: That doesn't work anymore, because all of a sudden those defenses have been breached, and it is going to happen in your business it already has happened, but.
Bruce Turkel: it's going to affect you in your business, no matter what your businesses radiologists used to say, well you know other people have to worry about this stuff but not us, because we're radiologists.
Bruce Turkel: Until someone realized hey you can get a radiologist us trained in India who can read a MRI or an x Ray overnight send it back for a 10th of the cost and all of a sudden there's a problem.
Bruce Turkel: And so, once you realize it that way, you have to start looking at your business and saying what do I need to do, and you use the exact right word very beginning to remain relevant.
Bruce Turkel: You might not have to change your business, you might have to change the perception of your business from your internal or external, but relevancy becomes the key.
David Avrin: Right and and relevant to today's expectations and driven by so many other industries that one of the things that I find really interesting.
David Avrin: Is this persistent belief on the part of organizations that and you mentioned this, as well the quality is is the significant differentiator or the ones who will say listen.
David Avrin: just keep keep an eye on on on the prize an eye on that the quality or I spoken we've done this as well is right before I go onstage the CEO does their state of the company gets everybody up in the ladder and the last thing they say is.
David Avrin: And remember folks at the end of the day, it's about quality and then you know the crowd roars and I just think God do I say adoring not say it because I.
David Avrin: I could not disagree more right at the end of the day, it's not about quality, the beginning of the day it's about quality that's the entry fee.
Bruce Turkel: Well, if you're good at.
David Avrin: What you do.
Bruce Turkel: function and your ability to provide function is simply cost of entry, I mean it's.
David Avrin: Right you can't be at the poker table.
Bruce Turkel: If you don't end up.
Bruce Turkel: that's the difference, but.
Bruce Turkel: here's the fascinating thing about quality now you know I.
Bruce Turkel: Am a total word nerd.
Bruce Turkel: So I always look into the etymology of words because that's where messaging comes from quality by itself, which is how it's always used means nothing, it needs a modifier you need to say low quality or high quality.
Bruce Turkel: The word quality we use to suggest high quality, but if you look it up that's not what it means, so when someone says quality is job one Ford said that or.
Bruce Turkel: What you said at the end of the day, it's all about quality, yes it is quality of what and what kind of quality and an eighth of quality of the function of what you do it's the quality of the relationship that you have.
Bruce Turkel: With the people you do it with and for and, more importantly, what they think and feel about that relationship.
David Avrin: yeah talk to us a bit about how from a wordsmith perspective, how you counsel clients, how you.
David Avrin: acknowledges and espouse this from the stage.
David Avrin: How do you differentiate in a growing Lee commodities marketplace and whether the business believes that their commodity or not, the marketplace, of course, does you don't have to be eggs or.
David Avrin: or milk and even those are finding good differentiation with you know lactate or a glance best or others as well.
David Avrin: But in a marketplace where we're As consumers, we assume everybody's good I mean you wouldn't be in business, if you weren't right you'd be out very quickly on yelp or Tripadvisor rotten tomatoes.
David Avrin: So how do you advise which is I hit my microphone here, how do you advise companies to either create differentiation discover differentiation or articulated verbally when their customers assume they're all the same.
Bruce Turkel: If you accept.
Bruce Turkel: Two premises that you and I have made number one which is that function and quality of function is cost of entry, so you can stop talking about how good you are because first of all, people can find out how good you are or not instantly.
David Avrin: Online and, second, of all.
Bruce Turkel: to your point consumers think everything is good to a base level and.
Bruce Turkel: computers have made it true that everything is good to a basic level so.
Bruce Turkel: You accept that, first of all, and then second of all you accept that you do need differentiation, to use your word there's only one place left to differentiate.
Bruce Turkel: And Oscar Wilde, wrote about it 115 years ago, when he said, be yourself everyone else has already taken.
Bruce Turkel: You David average and bring a unique spin to what you do, that is different than what I bring to what I do you and I have similar backgrounds culturally probably education wise probably on some level affluence wise on and on and on and on and on.
Bruce Turkel: However, we each look at things with our own unique spin our own unique take unique take and at some point, unless you sell a totally generic product which is a very, very dangerous place to have your business position.
Bruce Turkel: What makes your business different is you, if you think about the great brands, the company's they look at you go man, if I was only apple Google, Facebook Microsoft Porsche BMW, you can tell me the founder of each one of those companies, you know the founders story.
Bruce Turkel: virgin starbucks and those founders stories become.
Bruce Turkel: The reason why that company is differentiated.
Bruce Turkel: apple is a perfect example functionally apples do what other computers, do they use different style different tastes levels things like that.
Bruce Turkel: But they do the same thing, and you never.
Bruce Turkel: hear apple talk about speeds and feeds they never talked about function, they talk about the aesthetic traditions that Steve Jobs left them with and how their products make your life better.
Bruce Turkel: that's where the rubber meets the road.
Bruce Turkel: And when someone says to me yeah yeah but that's apple how do I do that.
Bruce Turkel: it's actually easier for you to do that in a small business, because we all know that businesses take on the personalities of the founders and of the leaders it's just that most small businesses, try to obfuscate that by trying to look bigger than they are more important than they.
David Avrin: are sure.
Bruce Turkel: Less personal than they are more corporate instead of saying when you deal with my company, whether i'm there or not you're dealing with me.
David Avrin: or so, but the creative connection and is what you talked about in your book it's all about them.
David Avrin: In one aspect we're taking on a personality that really differentiates here's who we are here's what we believe.
David Avrin: But it is all about them there's one of the things I love that you talk about that that most marketers is they talk about features and benefits they talk about the qualities, who they are we're family on here's what we believe it's like being on a blind a bad blind.
David Avrin: Right that's your line talk to us about that, and how do we shift our thinking when we love to talk about ourselves, we love to go features and benefits.
David Avrin: And you alluded to that it's really about how do we make them feel, but in a way that's so tangible that it actually drives a buying decision.
Bruce Turkel: So thank you, thank you for that, because that's really the critical underlying foundation and it's such an ironic recommendation.
Bruce Turkel: hey your business has to be all about them, but I want it to be more about you that's when I do that when i'm up on stage or talking to a client that I get the scooby Doo head right they go like what.
David Avrin: exactly right.
Bruce Turkel: it's like a bad blind date most marketing.
Bruce Turkel: And most most bad marketing is kind of like remember when you were in Camp when you were a kid and there was a kid your parents stay up on the hybrid going hey mom look at me.
Bruce Turkel: Look at me look at me look what I can do all you wanted that kid to do was belly flop right because.
Bruce Turkel: And that's what most marketers bad marketers and sophisticated marketers do look at me look at me look at me look at me.
Bruce Turkel: But I also said to you, it has to be about you, so the irony, is where the real secret lies, and that I created a.
Bruce Turkel: algorithm for this, because everybody wants to algorithms these days and it's very simple it's five characters it's the letter CC CC the number two CC CC to CC the first CC stands for company centric you are the company, I am the company.
Bruce Turkel: apple is the company burger king is the company.
Bruce Turkel: Regardless of the size company centric to T o
Bruce Turkel: Customer centric or client centric or consumer centric or church centered or country centric or city Center or county centric it works across the board, but.
Bruce Turkel: Whoever you do business with.
Bruce Turkel: Because different people have different audiences different.
Bruce Turkel: Avatar dirty business So how do you take who you are and what you do and give it.
Bruce Turkel: to your customers perfect example apple when they came out with the iPod they also did something that had never been done before they came out with white headphones.
Bruce Turkel: Why, because most business guys who were wearing them on the planes were dark blazers like you have on and those white headphones really stood out and what did it say i'm using an apple even the little white things to get out of your ears, the Q tips.
Bruce Turkel: They can make those things disappear, so you didn't see.
Bruce Turkel: them people don't want that they want to be identified to the product.
Bruce Turkel: So they are taking who they are, and they're giving it to the consumer, they don't charge you extra because they're white.
Bruce Turkel: that's a freebie and there's lots and lots of ways to do that think about you know you and I go to all these hotels, to speak at conferences most hotels, nowadays, have a coffee machine in the room, and most of the hotels, that you and I stay at on the coffee machine.
Bruce Turkel: It says we proudly serve starbucks coffee.
Bruce Turkel: Right yeah yeah the starbucks in the lobby has a line every morning, and now I know some people want to double latte half whatever, but the truth is it's for their caffeine intake but they want that starbucks cup that's got the big logo on it now, if you tell them that.
Bruce Turkel: they'll say, oh no no.
Bruce Turkel: I, like my coffee mate that's nonsense they can't tell the difference, they want to walk around the conference, even when they go into the conference room it says we proudly serve starbucks coffee.
Bruce Turkel: But people still want that cup because it's telling the world who you are and starbucks has made it valuable to your own self image unless you're a hipster, in which case you are, oh no, no, I don't drink starbucks coffee I want coffee that was you know marinated with.
David Avrin: its own.
Bruce Turkel: yeah whatever.
David Avrin: yeah all the juicy stuff.
David Avrin: talk to us about about customer centricity and we hear that a lot about sort of going from from product centric to customer centric.
David Avrin: How does an organization beyond sort of the broad platitudes of you know, our customers come first i'm like not really sure what that means.
David Avrin: What does customer centricity How does it manifest itself in in an organization's thought process their attitude their approach in a way that's tangible that makes somebody say this company gets me.
David Avrin: Not just that they care about me and we get all that helped me understand help us understand customer centricity from your perspective.
Bruce Turkel: Let me tell you I learned it um when I ran my agency, we were hired by discovery channel to help them build out their brands across multiple lines and discovery discovery kids animal planet people in arts and I got lucky enough.
Bruce Turkel: To spend some time with john hendricks who had founded the company.
Bruce Turkel: And he was explaining to me what.
Bruce Turkel: The the powerful idea behind the company was you would say oh it's nature shows or Oh, but.
Bruce Turkel: Before the idea was that nature shows why is that what they decided to do, and he explained this to me and here's what he told me I could never be everybody's favorite channel.
Bruce Turkel: Because David likes movies, and someone else likes sports and someone else wants news and if you're a news guy or news girl Gal woman you're going to turn on the TV and go right to.
Bruce Turkel: At the time that was seeing and now of course you run the gamut but you go right to CNN if you're a sports person you're going to go right to espn.
Bruce Turkel: If you are a movie person, you would go right to either HBO or showtime at the time, right and there was no way you could get the movie guy to first go to sports or the sports girl to first go to news, but he said I can't be your.
David Avrin: First.
Bruce Turkel: Your favorite signal, but I can be everybody's second favorite signal, so that when you're watching the movie and it gets boring.
Bruce Turkel: You might see what else is on or when news goes into that cycle and now you're going to see the same news again or the game is not any good, or you only want to watch the last five minutes anyways you're going to go somewhere else, and where are.
Bruce Turkel: You going to go, so he created a channel.
Bruce Turkel: Specifically, set up for you to come in and believe you could leave it anytime so there were not remember originally there was not stories, it was just you were seeing these incredible things at some point, you want the alligator to pull the monkey into the river and you keep snapping.
Bruce Turkel: away but.
Bruce Turkel: It never happened, it was kind of like click bait.
Bruce Turkel: But you would you could tune in at any time it didn't matter you can't tune into the movie and miss the beginning, if you missed the beginning the usual suspects why watch the movie right, but you can tune into discovery channel anytime Hendrix understood it wasn't about.
Bruce Turkel: The programming per se.
Bruce Turkel: It was about understanding his consumer.
Bruce Turkel: and understanding what they want it also what do they want to do the next day, they want to be able to be at the water cooler, which of course we don't get offices anymore, but when we did.
Bruce Turkel: And they want to sound smart so you're going to say hey What do you do last night, David oh I watched the most recent issue of jackass you should see those guys falling down the stairs and then I say you.
David Avrin: see that new documentary on extra body right.
Bruce Turkel: yeah I was watching about the Egyptian Pharaohs and how for Rhesus the third figured out quadratic equations now I don't know anything about it, but I certainly feel good he understood that's how you do, that was a master class that's what taught it to me.
David Avrin: Right.
Bruce Turkel: He never said it to me he just showed me what they did.
David Avrin: So, but let's talk for a second we're talking customer centricity about about the shift today because, as we were doing this 10 years ago it was.
David Avrin: How do we wordsmith quality, how do we talk about those differentiators I said before.
David Avrin: You know, at the beginning of the day it's about quality at the end of the day, it's about competitive advantage, what do you do better than others who do it well today i'm seeing the shift.
David Avrin: And I want your take on this is that it's less about what you do I mean well, we can determine every quickly online who does what who's your main competitor who's in proximity.
David Avrin: But we're seeing more of the changes of how fast, can you get it to us how convenient how flexible how how multiple to the way we want to buy.
David Avrin: In a marketplace replete with quality, the differentiators are more in terms of access, today, are you seeing the same thing.
Bruce Turkel: Well, my my my definite profound singular answer is yes and.
Bruce Turkel: um yes for some businesses, I actually absolutely see that the problem is, if you are going to wrap your entire life.
Bruce Turkel: Around delivering within 48 hours you're going to lose to the folks who've been doing 24 hours.
Bruce Turkel: And if you're going to wrap your entire meaning for being around 24 hours you're going to lose to the people who say we're going to deliver in 12 hours and that battle is going to continue, you know it's like.
Bruce Turkel: To be the low price leader, if you cancel all your clients, I know this, without even having you ever told me against using low price as a strategy, because ultimately you're going to lose because.
Bruce Turkel: Someone will have bank you out lose money for a while and, ultimately, if you win it's because you're not making profits and you're at a zero.
David Avrin: sum game, and unless you can come to you for price they will leave you for price right absolutely or you will die before they get there.
Bruce Turkel: So i'm instead to use your your scenario of everything can be delivered in 12 hours.
Bruce Turkel: But there's certain things I don't want to live or in 12 hours like craftsmanship.
Bruce Turkel: Like art, so if there's a way you can add a level of artistry and craftsmanship to what you do, then, when I say look, you can get wallets that will be delivered in 24 hours, but we hand stitch ours and therefore based on your measurement of.
Bruce Turkel: your pocket.
Bruce Turkel: or whatever that level of customization changes everything no different than I think was Carole King singing anticipation, for the Heinz ketchup that was.
Bruce Turkel: Right, it was.
Bruce Turkel: it's worth waiting for, you can get faster watery catches.
Bruce Turkel: But if you want something as good as you deserve your, then you want to wait for it.
David Avrin: I remember back in the day and I think you would remember this world is probably 3040 years ago the old ads for preference by l'oreal when they would say it's expensive it's more expensive.
Bruce Turkel: But i'm working on i'm worth it exactly now i'm not nearly as old as you know, I probably don't remember that but i've heard about it.
David Avrin: we're probably I talked to me about real quickly about your about your business, because I know there's a big transition for Turkish brands what's going on with that.
Bruce Turkel: Well, I sold Turkey brands actually.
Bruce Turkel: To my part, we had the office in Miami our national Office now we had nine affiliate offices throughout Latin America.
Bruce Turkel: So we sold first we sold the the Latin American offices to an agency in Spain and then five years ago I left I sold the business to my partner who can tell us to run and he's doing very, very well he's changed the name to relish brand for relevant brands.
Bruce Turkel: Because I simply did not want to deal with the infrastructure anymore, I did it for 32 years from just me in a room.
Bruce Turkel: To all those people running around and I have to be honest, the business part of what I did the management all that was not my thing I like coming up with the I do three things I come up with the ideas I express those ideas I can wait, I can draw I can.
Bruce Turkel: play music, I can present and I get people excited about the ideas after that.
Bruce Turkel: Not so much so, I had to hire other people to do the implementation to do the overseeing.
Bruce Turkel: And I didn't want to do that runner so now I do basically three things I have been consulting with companies on their messaging strategy, but I don't do the implementation I come in, I look at the situation I make recommendations.
Bruce Turkel: One out of there if I was brave or my business would be called wham Bam Thank you ma'am.
Bruce Turkel: Because that's what that's what I want to do, but i'll recommend good people to do the work.
Bruce Turkel: I also, of course.
Bruce Turkel: write books and speak at conferences, but i've also made this huge shift because.
Bruce Turkel: I found that the consumer marketing business just I had done it long enough, I wasn't as interested in it, what I found I was incredibly interested in is how people.
Bruce Turkel: Successful people change their lives, why they change their lives, what they do about it, it used to be, how do you get companies to change their lives through messaging strategy now i've been writing books, the new book is that all there isn't working with people.
Bruce Turkel: On learning how to do this for themselves, because you know.
Bruce Turkel: We all hear the clock ticking we've all reached a relative level of success and.
Bruce Turkel: By relative I mean you and I are not debating whether we take your earlier or my goal stream to get started, for the season, but we're also not worried about who's going to pick up the dinner check, you know we're somewhere in the middle there.
David Avrin: So let's talk about it, because this is fascinating for me, and I think for a lot of others well.
David Avrin: I also don't do much of the implementation it's not because we're too good for it it's just we've done it and it's time to do something else, and I, and I like to look at our life and our career and the espousing of our wisdom.
David Avrin: In the implementation as just, then the next step we've all learned something and everything that we do is a reflection of the wisdom, born of experience let's talk a little bit about third act.
David Avrin: Because I read your book and, once again, highly recommend it for all it's got a very creative cover for those who are.
David Avrin: who are looking at the video version, if not go to Amazon look it up brewster cal to you R ke ll it's called is that all there is or, if you want to put the entire band, is that all there is like this is it.
David Avrin: But it's a great question because I think a lot of people get and this isn't people who hate their life, this is the people who, who have had a measure of success and say.
David Avrin: Ask what's next because i'm not done.
David Avrin: And we're not ready to be put out to pasture and what I found fascinating about the book was not only was there some relevance I wasn't really in a place of questioning but we're new empty nesters for myself for my wife and I.
David Avrin: doesn't mean the kids are off the payroll but the least five of them grown and gone, but what I loved was you've got and how many people did you interview altogether for this.
Bruce Turkel: Well, I interviewed about 45 but I feature 14 of them in the book.
David Avrin: 14 of them and what was really interesting I was talking to our kids because we've got kids that go from 27 down a team and they're all dealing with that angsty of.
David Avrin: I don't want to do the stress of my life I hate my job or whatever else I mean their kids right now, like, I found we were we moved recently and I had this.
David Avrin: plastic these these full sheets that used to go on a three ring binder filled with old business cards, I think I counted 26 business cards, I have had over the years.
David Avrin: And what I love about the book once again the book is called is that all there is.
David Avrin: is so many of the stories the thread, even though they're all very, very different individuals, the thread was each of them had gone through significant.
David Avrin: life and career shifts and sometimes it was they had sort of earn the right to do something else because of what they've done, but some of the shifts were profound very few people who worked for two years and got a gold watch.
David Avrin: They realize the world had changed their life had changed, and they were going to do something different.
David Avrin: And it was incredibly empowering how did you feel during those interview, because you, you did the interviews basically you reported them in their words as they described their journey talk to me about that, and what drove you to want to do that for this book.
Bruce Turkel: Well, you know you and I are marketing guys, and so we grew up on a steady diet of market research being handed to us.
Bruce Turkel: If you're going to be working on an account.
Bruce Turkel: here's who our customers are here's what they believe, and you know, some of them we would accept some of the you would reject you look for inspiration blah blah blah, but we were used to having those job jackets or digital files.
Bruce Turkel: Just full of information about what to do next, and then you decide okay i'm going to change my life and you look around.
Bruce Turkel: Well there's you could read biographies I mean we go to my ears biography read Winston churchill's biography read Martin Luther king's biography you're going to be incredibly inspired.
Bruce Turkel: And you're going to get some good tips but.
Bruce Turkel: No one actually tells you what to do next there's no prescribed program for this, and everyone has different ways of doing.
Bruce Turkel: It.
Bruce Turkel: The other thing is, I thought you know what I don't know the answers i'm exploring this and i'm not presumptuous enough to believe that my way of doing it is the right way for everybody.
Bruce Turkel: So let me talk to a bunch of different people who have gone through these significant changes I thought I was going to talk to 80 year olds I started that way.
Bruce Turkel: But then, as people recommended Oh, you need to talk to someone so you need to talk to someone so it kept going down until Ian Wolf, I think, was in his 30s when I spoke to him.
Bruce Turkel: But it changed his life drastically from MIT to Green Berets I mean just all these drastic changes and what I and oh so, then I look for those.
David Avrin: differences.
Bruce Turkel: And I also look for the similarities to use your point the patterns.
Bruce Turkel: What keeps repeating itself, where you could go Oh, you know what i've been through that and what I realized was the facts are different, I tried to have the people be as diverse as possible in age in in gender in in ethnicity and religion everything, so the facts are different.
Bruce Turkel: But the truths.
Bruce Turkel: are universal, and so I found that I could listen to an interview with someone whose life is completely different than mine.
Bruce Turkel: But they would talk about things, and I would be thinking oh yeah I went through that with my kids oh yeah I know about that, and so there was this weird juxtaposition of everybody's different everybody's the same.
Bruce Turkel: Right my.
David Avrin: same thing.
Bruce Turkel: kind of changed, thank you, as I wrote it to be at first, I was going to tell people here's what you should do, then it dawned on me i'm going to say here's what other people have done, if you see things in here that work for you use them if you see things in here you go oh my.
Bruce Turkel: God I would never do that.
Bruce Turkel: Well that's an equally benefits.
David Avrin: Valuable as well, absolutely.
Bruce Turkel: Right, so when you go up to the salad bar, I think I use that metaphor look I like beets and Romaine lettuce and and red onions, you may say, I hate audience, but I like stinky cheese and mushy tomatoes okay knock yourself out.
Bruce Turkel: that's the whole idea and that's what I was trying to get across.
David Avrin: Here, and I even took it further, because I looked at it, the other people there.
David Avrin: And the farther we go in our lives in our careers, is that we've all seen a growing salad bar, we know what we don't like anymore.
David Avrin: We know what we like and we want more of, and I think that's the most empowering part of it is for those who are facing I think some people are lost, I think some people, it was a little bit jarring I remember my father when he retired my.
David Avrin: My step mom was like stop following me around the House, you know.
Bruce Turkel: Find sorry used for better or worse, not for lunch get.
David Avrin: Right exactly right right and people talking about it being a little bit jarring are going from those of us who've led companies going from six days a week, and you know 120 miles an hour to.
David Avrin: Zero and they thought they wanted to golf every day, but using your your salad bar analogy was.
David Avrin: People I think I saw people saying I realized this part was more important to me this part I really liked, and I want to do more of it.
David Avrin: and being able to have the freedom to whether it's make a living doing that.
David Avrin: But, but I think, as we sort of tie it back to the brand stuff as well it's coming to a greater recognition of what our gifts are and greater recognition where our value lies in greater recognition of where we.
David Avrin: want to spend our time with the relationships with the people, and anyway just highly recommended there were parts that absolutely had no relevance to me.
David Avrin: Other than it was interesting and inspiring to see somebody else's journey and i've never been one that that sort of searching, you know, a search for meaning it for me it's more of a quest for impact.
David Avrin: You know, you want to matter, not because you were but because you did something or meant something to somebody else.
David Avrin: And so I think it's a remarkable achievement, it was clear, there was a little bit part of your personal journey but I love that you included so many other journeys in that as well.
Bruce Turkel: One of the things that i've learned, because since i've written the book people come up to me all the time and talk about the fact.
Bruce Turkel: That they want to change their lives they want to do these things I don't know that I can leave my job, you know my kids are still in college whatever everybody has their their issues.
Bruce Turkel: And so I always ask the same question which is okay before you figure out what to do.
Bruce Turkel: You have to really be clear on what you want, and I will tell you now that generically people give me three answers to that question, what do you want, I want to be happy, they say, or I want to be rich or I want to be fulfilled.
Bruce Turkel: If you peel the onion further if you pick That apart, what does, I want to be happy me does it mean you want to walk around smiling all the time.
Bruce Turkel: Or you want to be joyful or you're a hedonist and you want to increase pleasure and reduce pain it's a hallmark card being happy is not really.
Bruce Turkel: A real you know it's part of you get happy because of other things, then they say, I want to be rich and then the question is okay how rich do you.
Bruce Turkel: want to be.
Bruce Turkel: Because chances are I mean you might have financial constraints and financial pressures, but you already are rich, you know you are Richard today, then a king of England was 300 year or 400 years ago, the only thing they can do you.
Bruce Turkel: couldn't relative.
Bruce Turkel: Was they can have people be headed.
Bruce Turkel: And you can't really do that.
Bruce Turkel: But other than that you know you've never felt stuck.
Bruce Turkel: been hungry, I mean people say to me i'm like literally starving, although they say literally i'm like literally starting to tell you.
Bruce Turkel: It just haven't had a pizza and a couple hours, and then I want to be fulfilled by what are you religious or spiritual do you want to, or you are humanitarian.
David Avrin: What is it.
Bruce Turkel: And then they really have to think and I, by the way the exercises we used to.
Bruce Turkel: use in the Agency.
Bruce Turkel: To help our clients figure out what they wanted, with some modifications work incredibly well so i've been doing these strategic roundtables showing people how to do it once they get clear on that who they are, what they want everything changes it's a real game changer because.
David Avrin: It brings it back it brings back to the title of the book itself.
David Avrin: Which is sort of that that common question for those who are feeling a little lost or little unfulfilled my wife recently got her master's in organizational psychology and she has this and here's my plug for business, she has.
David Avrin: A company called more to life mentoring and she mentors women who think is is that All there is is this All there is is there more to life, whether they raise their kids with a fork I think the title is is is so.
David Avrin: descriptive and self identifying I think the right people are asking that question is that all there is there's something inherent in that that says they're somewhat aspirational but they don't know the direction to go.
Bruce Turkel: I think I think you're absolutely right and different people express it different ways, which is why I tried to do a sort of a universal viewpoint.
Bruce Turkel: So you can pick what works for you, as you said, some of them you didn't find relevant, but you found the story is fascinating others oh my God that guy lived my life, I mean it did both.
David Avrin: Right that's good hey listen, we could talk all day and we we might off air and it back as well if people want to learn more about brewster kellen how to bring you in to speak, or to consult how do they get in touch with you.
Bruce Turkel: Easy one of the things you and I both learned in marketing is.
Bruce Turkel: Easy is better than clever so my website, believe it or not, is my name Bruce turkcell.com my email address is my name Bruce had brewster Kelly calm, if you go on my website.
Bruce Turkel: My phone numbers there you can email me, you can read my blog every week it's all there if you go to YouTube and want to see my videos guess what name it's under oh yeah.
David Avrin: Bruce Turkey rooster kill.
David Avrin: It is you're speaking my mantra be remarkably easy to do business with mine, coincidentally is David ever.com.
David Avrin: might not have that happen at David ever good yeah as opposed to your clever marketing something yeah anyway.
David Avrin: Listen hey, thank you for for being on the show hang out here for a second we'll talk, on the other side, I will remind everybody that this podcast is sponsored in part.
David Avrin: By the customer experience advantage morning huddle you know some of your most.
David Avrin: Innovative solutions to your biggest customer facing challenges are found within the creative minds of your own people.
David Avrin: Let me contribute to your morning huddle conversation, you can learn more about participating in this powerful global initiative at morning huddle membership.com, of course, all my books are available on Amazon, including my new book.
David Avrin: REACH here off to the side which of course is called the morning huddle powerful customer experience conversations to wake you up.
David Avrin: And shake you up and win more business be sure to click to like this podcast subscribe leave a comment below, and of course click the little bell icon to receive notifications of new episodes.
David Avrin: And you can learn more about my keynote speaking at and consulting a David average calm, if you want to hire Bruce go to Bruce turkcell COM.
David Avrin: Thanks for tuning and listen, this is the customer experience advantage podcast check out past episodes leave a comment, a big thanks to my guest brewster kill.
Bruce Turkel: You know so much higher both of us.
David Avrin: I think so don't you think.
David Avrin: I think.
David Avrin: i'll do the morning you do the.
Bruce Turkel: We do it together we get on stage, together we do a given take we fight for their attention.
Bruce Turkel: It can be like like a chain match except.
David Avrin: I think so it's the all ashkenazi ticket.
David Avrin: exactly right hey thanks for tuning in i'm David ever be good.