Adam Toporek Interview - How to Be Your Customers' Hero
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It's easy to talk in broad strokes about becoming more customer-centric, or point to the big players like Apple and Amazon and say be more like that, but where is the kind of budget and resources to do what they do? My guest today is Adam Toporek. He's a customer experience colleague of mine, author, and fellow podcaster who is masterful at helping companies and their frontline workers be their customers' hero and recognize how they can do much better with what they have.
David Avrin: hey thanks and welcome to the podcast today I am David Avrin and I will tell you I am fighting the post-COVID.
David Avrin: cough it's not really long coven but i'm really lucky individuals, because I travel extensively, as many of my guests do as well and I had this stupid thing three times.
David Avrin: And so, actually i'm feeling great fully boosted and vast and everything else, so we were serious, but then it triggers this little cough so.
David Avrin: If, during this podcast whether you're watching the video version of my website or on YouTube where you're listening the audio version of course on all of the major platforms, if there is an awkward pause or we are jump cut us just because my brilliant producer.
David Avrin: nourish cut out some coughing fit or something else alright enough of that no disclaimers here.
David Avrin: This is it, this is a I think a really good show one of the things that for all of us who are in the cx space and customer service space as well.
David Avrin: You know I think it's sort of standard that you bring up some of the big stories, I think, with any speaker, there are the standard stories the fedex story the starfish story gag.
David Avrin: and others as well, but even in this space they point to some of the major players and here's who's doing it right and people throw up their hands like Why am I supposed to do that I don't have Amazon budget i'm not international well, I guess, it is really good at this.
David Avrin: He he's a trainer i'll let him say more about him but i'll give you his his standard introduction here.
David Avrin: Adam Toporek is an internationally recognized customer experience expert keynote speaker and customer service trainer he helps organizations transform their relationships with their customers through better strategy, training and communication he's the author.
David Avrin: Of be your customers hero, the founder of the popular customers that stick blog and co host of the crack the customer code podcast as well as the creator of multiple virtual training courses on customer service and experience, Adam welcome to the show.
Adam Toporek: Thank you, David pleasure to be here, and you know I love i've actually seen you speak and we didn't get talked about that, before and I love hearing your thoughts on customer service.
Adam Toporek: So I never gonna have a great conversation.
David Avrin: yeah absolutely well it's one of the it's kind of I laugh about this because it's like people that's that play in bands, you know I used to sitting in a group when I was you know in my 20s.
David Avrin: And we're all at different clubs on Friday night.
David Avrin: And so you don't really get it here each other, because we're in different places, and so, because you and I are very much in the same subject we're generally not at the same conferences.
David Avrin: So we see each other at the national speakers association and things like that, but i'm a big fan big fan from afar, I, like the in depth work I like sort of the transition that you've made to incorporate the customer experience in the customer service as well, but let's jump into that.
David Avrin: And and sort of in the opening when I talk about you know, for all of us, you know it's really easy to throw out the big players in the big names, how do you help.
David Avrin: Smaller businesses mid sized businesses and others recognize some of the strategies and tactics employed by the bigger ones, but within the constraints in the budgets in the staffing that that they're that they're saddled with.
Adam Toporek: Right, I mean the first thing is acknowledging that not every lesson is applicable.
Adam Toporek: Right, not every lesson is something you can apply.
Adam Toporek: To a small business or medium sized business and the other thing is, you know when you look at scale scale changes everything.
Adam Toporek: yeah and that's what people fail to recognize that the impact of scale on an operation.
Adam Toporek: completely changes the dynamic changes, how you approach experience problem.
Adam Toporek: How you approach staffing how you approach silos and silo management, you know you don't have you don't necessarily have silos if you have a restaurant with 3030 employees.
Adam Toporek: But you have silos if you're a fedex or if you're you know, whatever large company ritz carlton even a customer experience a legendary customer experience company.
Adam Toporek: sure they still have to worry about silos they still have to worry about those challenges of scale.
Adam Toporek: So when we look at say principles those things apply across the board, but how we apply them can change so let's take one of the.
Adam Toporek: Topics i'm very passionate about and I think the market has fortunately kept sort of caught up with my passion, because it is more and more important every year is reducing customer hassle.
Adam Toporek: In the journey, now we talked about sort of why I talked about hassle and not friction or effort, maybe a little bit later.
Adam Toporek: But when you look at that, from the standpoint of a small business you've got to apply a more granular approach to hassle but you're not going to have that you may not even have you know good qualitative data to us right if i'm analyzing hassle.
Adam Toporek: For fortune 500 company.
Adam Toporek: i'm looking at qualitative data i'm looking at the touch points which points are going to be actually.
Adam Toporek: You know where we're seeing resistance, where we're seeing drop off for cart abandonment, even in the digital experience.
Adam Toporek: And the small business we're gonna have to approach it differently we've got to look at some basic principles of hassle So what are our policies and procedures right that's one of the to me, I always call policies and procedures, he oh gee of hassle.
David Avrin: Right yeah right.
Adam Toporek: exactly right.
David Avrin: It is how we.
David Avrin: How we want to do it, not necessarily how our customers want to deal with us, but we've created this customer path that works for us but you're going to ask the question does it work for them.
Adam Toporek: Well, exactly actually I came up with a term years ago called rule of creation, which is given sort of a natural development.
Adam Toporek: Every organization crews more rules and regulations you never get less okay right you never just drop them, you have.
Adam Toporek: purposely focus to minimize you have to like actually evaluate your policies and procedures, so how many doctors offices or you know.
Adam Toporek: Small businesses where there's a subscription a gym membership have you, you know dealt with and i'm going to use that negative phrasing dealt with in your life.
Adam Toporek: Where it was a hassle to do business with them right where you've got to come in and fill out the paper form and it's the year 2022 I mean.
Adam Toporek: You can't even do like a Google form, I mean anything.
David Avrin: Well, let me give you let me give you a different one I mean interrupt but I, but I love that example because it can also go to the other.
David Avrin: Extreme which is somebody sold them some technology that's gonna say we're going to take all this hassle off of your frontline staff, and so they create this technology some iPad.
David Avrin: And they give it to the patient walking in it's like so the guy who's bleeding from his head.
David Avrin: is supposed to navigate your technology which by the way, he was never trained on so you're so your frontline person.
David Avrin: receptionist doesn't have to do it let's give it to the bleeding guy it's crazy.
Adam Toporek: that's why I have a really it's actually not about technology, but I have a really old blog posts on my blog and you can probably find it there, and I think it's called just just shut up and bleed or just sit down and.
David Avrin: bleed and throughout my experience I.
Adam Toporek: had an urgent care Center.
Adam Toporek: Where I just the most incredible hassle you've imagined, and then a lack of bedside manner on top of that.
Adam Toporek: So you're what urgency yeah exactly I don't like emergency that's very good too, so you know when when we talk about hassle so just talking.
Adam Toporek: About a small business.
Adam Toporek: perspective, a lot of times i'll just look at sort of five basic principle one policies and procedures silos that may not be as big a.
Adam Toporek: Big an issue in a small or medium sized business, but it still can be you still can have an HR department, you can still have.
Adam Toporek: Purchasing or accounts payable accounts receivable that are part of the client experience right, I mean we're not talking about.
Adam Toporek: You know, a company with 200 employees can have these types of issues, so your silo and communication issues can still matter they're different.
Adam Toporek: For experience design you alluded to that right we're designing the experience for ourselves what's easiest for us oftentimes we're not designing the experience for the optimal customer journey.
David Avrin: right we present it for so we think, because we think we are right, I mean I brought that up with clients as well and they're not clueless right.
David Avrin: But what they're doing is they're saying this works well for them they're really looking at it from their perspective and what they aren't doing very well, is looking through the customers eyes.
David Avrin: i've heard other colleagues and others as well, talking about we do this stuff we don't think about the customer that's naive everybody's thinking about the customer.
David Avrin: I just don't think they're doing it from the right perspective I think they're looking for, as we know, efficiencies right predictability on that path, but it really does take getting on the other side of the transaction and looking at it through their eyes as well.
Adam Toporek: Oh hundred percent you know, he was a true genius I think Tom Peters management by walking around management by.
Adam Toporek: wandering around, but we can say the same thing about cx by walking around and cx by wandering around right, I mean literally.
Adam Toporek: As you as you point out getting in your customers shoes, I mean I i'm like call your number listen to it.
Adam Toporek: For you know call from a call from a number, nobody knows who walk into your store have your friend walk into the store.
Adam Toporek: Higher secret higher secret shopper whatever it may be, because we never view the experience the same and it's always important to remember those perspectives when I do trainings for organizations, one of the things I do is I do calls with a.
David Avrin: handful of people that are to.
Adam Toporek: Be in the in the room.
Adam Toporek: Because, no matter how good.
David Avrin: luck with that, please.
Adam Toporek: Those exciting, no matter how engaged management is i've i've been basically in leadership, most of my life, but no matter how engaged, you are no matter how close you think you are you just don't have the same eyes, as the person on the front line.
David Avrin: And, in many cases, they were the ones who designed it so when they call they know exactly where to go they know exactly where to push because they've done it 100 times.
David Avrin: You know, I was talking to somebody about their website is it was I couldn't I couldn't find this it was really easy just go to the top it's the Third, the third item over the menu bar.
David Avrin: click that it's the second one from the bottom, well, I mean How long does it take me to figure out i'll give you a better example, so this last week, I was.
David Avrin: In you and I were talking off air, I was in nashville and staying at the hotel there we were having dinner.
David Avrin: And they and they were like waiting for menus and they said no, you go scan the qr code now we're kind of post coven I mean there's no master anything else, and I said, you know i'm almost 59 years old, and I know what you're thinking, he cannot be I know.
David Avrin: that's what i'm saying is exactly what i'm saying, and I said, but you have a menu.
David Avrin: And he said no, we don't have many years ago scan the qr code and i've had that I, the same issue at wells fargo or something I said I can't I can't read this on my.
David Avrin: phone I didn't bring my reading glasses and we do have an option for it, and he just looked at me like like we would never even thought of that we do it by qr code.
David Avrin: Now right some accommodation that they made for distance right with coven but now it's like wow this works great and doesn't though you know.
David Avrin: Those the kind of things that once again they look in this works it's efficient the bean counters love it but you're right it's that that hassle factor you.
David Avrin: Anyway, you I did you but.
Give me more.
Adam Toporek: Well yeah I mean it yeah but part of that is also industry and expectations and who's your target audience and if your target audience is between 18 and 28.
Adam Toporek: Usually now, I would still say have a paper menu for people who.
Adam Toporek: aren't between 18 or.
David Avrin: 28 sure.
Adam Toporek: Right, I mean because that's not it sometimes it's hard to set up.
Adam Toporek: You know exceptions to your experience for edge cases sometimes it's not having a couple of paper menus is not very difficult to do right, this is not a scalability issues this.
Adam Toporek: is not a problem.
Adam Toporek: It can be another context i've actually I visited Mexico City twice this year, so far, and I was that's the first time I really experienced that your code it's everywhere they're.
Adam Toporek: Like most of the restaurants, I went to wear a qr code and I had to get used to it, and sometimes they bring it out, because my my Spanish is muscle manuals.
Adam Toporek: So they you know they they break out the English menu once in a while, but so it didn't have me thinking about the same thing, like what's the experience here like what what happens for tourists, you have no Spanish.
Adam Toporek: Or if they don't have an English version on the website so I.
Adam Toporek: You know, these things are very interesting and trying to you know we're always designing our experiences don't say Oh, we should be done in designing our experiences for optimal customers.
Adam Toporek: But we should also understand that you know or persona A, B and C are not the only are not our only customers, they may be our target, they may be, our focus but they're not our only customers.
Adam Toporek: And when possible, we do want to look at those yeah maybe exceptions, I don't I don't think your case was really is huge exception.
David Avrin: know I will be but isn't that part but Adam isn't that part of.
David Avrin: What omni channel is right isn't it recognizing where things have gone away that, no matter how they want to communicate with you or buy from you, it doesn't mean we can all and listen it goes back to our first point right you can't do everything and it's all situation.
David Avrin: right but but isn't that part of the crux today of recognizing what's changed with us as customers.
David Avrin: Is there is an expectation that there is some level of flexibility, something at two in the morning or or some alteration of a traditional customer path that we would have seen maybe 10 years ago.
Adam Toporek: When a person not hundred.
Adam Toporek: percent that was true you know in 2019 you're getting true every year that it just exploded after koba this effect, I think.
Adam Toporek: What customers demand, you know we're talking about hassle free and frictionless that's one of the big things.
Adam Toporek: That people demand one I you know what I have a chapter be your customers hero called everyone is rushed everyone's stressed, and I share some data about how everybody is like stressed out because of their digital devices and all that.
Adam Toporek: sure that book was published in 2015 I wrote that chapter in 2014, what are we in 2022.
Adam Toporek: I think we can all agree it's only gotten worse.
Adam Toporek: And that matters like to me, the worst thing you can do as a company now you and I are both really busy people worst thing you can do is waste my time.
Adam Toporek: You may be jumped through hoops but there used to be like high performers entrepreneurs people.
Adam Toporek: That were really busy felt that way.
Adam Toporek: Now everyone.
David Avrin: Everybody ways to greet.
Adam Toporek: greet everyone and so it's a huge part of that and I.
Adam Toporek: don't even remember the original question so forgive me, you can get me back on track.
David Avrin: we're talking about whatever we wanted it's my.
Adam Toporek: Point yeah.
Adam Toporek: But yeah I mean that's that's that's a that's a crucial aspect of it is understanding, I think we're talking about flexibility, so one of the aspects of being hassled.
Adam Toporek: Free is being able to pivot is being able one having the options that are there to the something I actually talk about when you talk about customer experience.
Adam Toporek: Leadership having a well trained and empowered staff we're not we're not talking about digital experience.
Adam Toporek: That can actually pivot in the moment I can pull it in real time.
David Avrin: let's talk about that person, because I would love your thoughts on this, because this is a, this is a I, I think we agree, this is a necessary.
David Avrin: Policy behavioral modification amongst staff but it's the scariest one for leaders.
David Avrin: Because I don't want your thoughts on it, because listen we we interview people for jobs right we bring on our staff we check out their profiles, we look at their social media we do everybody does.
David Avrin: And then we ask them those hard questions right tell me about a situation where things didn't go well how did you handle it, and as soon as we hire them we neuter them.
David Avrin: Now just do it this way, read this script do that asking people to make good decisions training them on what a good decision looks like.
David Avrin: And deviating from the script that predictable that's scary for managers, how do you and your training in your speaking, how do you help companies leaders cross that Rubicon.
Adam Toporek: Well, this is a deep subject, so I will try so first of all, you hit the right word scary, it is about fear.
Adam Toporek: It is completely about fear, but I will probably tell you, the one thing you're never gonna hear another customer experience experts say because it's not fluffy when people talk about empowerment it's all about.
Adam Toporek: The feel good of letting your employees be themselves and be free, and all this empowerment is a risk reward decision, it is that simple.
Adam Toporek: Okay, you don't give target is not going to give one of their.
Adam Toporek: frontline tellers the ability to wire transfer from their bank account that's an extreme ridiculous example, but it shows that there are limits to empowerment it's where the line is so with empowerment, one of the things that a lot of leaders get wrong is not.
Adam Toporek: approaching it like that rationally just approaching it as okay what could go wrong all right, what is, what are the downsides if I give this power if I give this latitude.
Adam Toporek: Right and then, what are the upsides and people tend to over index on the fear they tend to over index on what may go wrong and most exactly, but I think once you once you look at empowerment actually tell a story in my keynote i'll try to give you a short version here about.
Adam Toporek: General George Marshall so George Marshall was the Chief of Staff of the US army, he was after President Roosevelt during World War Two he was the boss of everybody, including eyes and our.
Adam Toporek: Most people know general Eisenhower and present later President Eisenhower from D day.
Adam Toporek: So George Marshall sitting in his kitchen Oh, I see these in his garden, his wife gets a phone call from the.
Adam Toporek: army goes gets against her husband out of the garden.
Adam Toporek: He gets on phone yeah yeah okay yeah yeah alright hangs up his wife's like mold George what happened, you didn't say anything they said it was hugely important he's like well you know the troops landed in.
Adam Toporek: France he's like you didn't ask anything you didn't even ask a question.
Adam Toporek: he's like well being just many miles away I guess that's for right to the side.
Adam Toporek: And you know I mean if this if this man with the fate of western civilization hanging in the balance.
Adam Toporek: can basically say that's eisenhower's job and go back to this carrots, on the eve of the greatest invasion in human history.
Adam Toporek: I think we can all loosen up the reins I think we can all you know give more power and more ability to.
Adam Toporek: You know, solve issues in real time and that's a lot about what empowers impairments about what you get from it, it is you're solving the issue in the moment because when you don't that's automatically a bad experience right.
David Avrin: I mean it may not have problems that fester.
David Avrin: escalate they cause the negative online reviews and everything else.
Adam Toporek: Exactly the delay is I mean even even if you fix it even if you resolve it quickly the delay is by.
Adam Toporek: Definition a negative experience, right now, can be a really negative experience reminder one it just depends, so one of the interesting things that the data shows to your you're asking about like, how do you do this.
Adam Toporek: Sure it's a cultural thing right empowerment is about culture, so if you have a culture where it's just been locked down to this is what I had when I when I opened my retail store I had everything locked down I had an MBA everything had a checklist and then I realized that I.
Adam Toporek: Had basically ruined everybody's weekend last a customer for $49.
Adam Toporek: And I got smart real fast right.
Adam Toporek: But it's it's a cultural thing, so one of the things I learned is that it was difficult to go from that to hey you're empowered you can do this now, and the literature actually says there.
Adam Toporek: is a difference between actual empowerment and psychological empowerment so.
Adam Toporek: yeah so if you're actually moving to your like your woke up you're born I knew i'm going to empower my team, I see the light.
Adam Toporek: And you just say okay here's what you can do here i'm losing in the rain you don't have to check in on this, you can do this don't be surprised if they don't do it.
David Avrin: Right.
David Avrin: you're right they have they have the technical authority but do they feel they really have the freedom to do that and what's the ramifications of doing it wrong.
Adam Toporek: Exactly because you bet on their back their manager their supervisors fit on their back watching every little thing so there's an aspect of psychological empowerment and that it takes time and that's about trust that's about giving them confidence so that they trust hey.
Adam Toporek: If I do screw up if I don't use the empowerment quite right.
Adam Toporek: Right.
Adam Toporek: you're not going to eat my lunch for it we're going to have a conversation you're going to guide me for the next time.
Adam Toporek: But you're, the main thing is, I tried, I tried to serve the customer.
David Avrin: But it is trust, but it's also training isn't it, because one of the things that, as I think about this and I don't really do customer service training, I know you do that, in addition to the customer experience work, but I told him I said, you know.
David Avrin: What we are so cognizant of what can go wrong right, we are so and, as you said that psychological disempowerment of those individuals just feeling reluctant to step out because they don't want to screw it up, they don't get in trouble, nobody does right, but the the idea of training them.
David Avrin: To what a good decision looks like within the context of our business model, what does it like to see what is the lifetime value of a customer and do we worry about stepping over dollars to pick up dimes mark sanborn has got a great routine about that, where he talks about that, but.
David Avrin: How do we train them to recognize what a good decision looks like so.
David Avrin: They are psychologically empowered because they've seen examples of it.
Adam Toporek: I mean, I think that is part of an overall trend, I mean companies tend to under index soft skills training.
Adam Toporek: Right, I mean one of the.
David Avrin: boys is a train to the policy.
Adam Toporek: right they trade operational training here's how you use this that when you when you start yeah here's how you use the system here's how you file you.
Adam Toporek: file your tps report all that kind of stuff so when you're trying when you're training it one with we're talking about empowerment is one letting them know where the lane is here's what here's a general.
Adam Toporek: Rules are you know we're sort of we're what we're looking at here some things.
Adam Toporek: But stories stories are crucial right showing how people have solve problems how people have gone the extra mile how people.
Adam Toporek: Have you know, taken a bad situation and resolved it in the moment and made it a win, and I think stories or when you're talking about empowerment are once you've established sort of the the guard rails are a huge part of that training.
David Avrin: Right right stories scenarios here's what it looks like done well here's where.
David Avrin: Do you do things with them, do you do role playing so that everybody can sort of see here's one gone right because there's some pretty standard scenarios.
David Avrin: And we're oftentimes, on the other side of that because we get pissed off to we get frustrated when things are are delayed or time is wasted.
Adam Toporek: Right, I mean the catch was doing role play we do role play for a lot of things, not as much for empowerment and one of the reasons is.
Adam Toporek: yeah one thing i'm not an in house trainer so we come Member and they're more short term sure, but the other thing with empowerment is.
Adam Toporek: it's improvisation right so empowerment isn't it I you mentioned singing I haven't had a chance to talk music before but i've got a guitar sitting right over here and a bunch of the other room.
Adam Toporek: and
Adam Toporek: Music music improvisation and look at Charlie Parker he's one of the greatest.
Adam Toporek: improvisers of all time.
Adam Toporek: He practiced 12 hours a day for years just scales just scales and arpeggios and why does that matter, because he learned the patterns.
Adam Toporek: He he ingrained the pattern, so that, when it came time to recognize a pattern to you know to improvise in real time when he was actually improvising the solo he had that vocabulary and training frontline teams is a lot like that.
Adam Toporek: It is making sure they have those core skills.
Adam Toporek: For you know the traditional problems traditional challenges that we faced make sure they have that, then they have the power to use them.
Adam Toporek: in real time in a way that makes sense, I mean we I mentioned culture at the beginning, when you talk about empowerment, it is culture, it is we are a customer centric company, and so you know with within reason.
Adam Toporek: Solving the customers issue is the number one most important thing we did.
Adam Toporek: Well, this particular batch just.
David Avrin: To go back to speed because you're talking about that we're talking about hassle or friction a cousin of hassle.
David Avrin: The thing that I think of anything that has been clarified and and perfected and expanded during covert is is is speed speed of access speed of.
David Avrin: response I was, I saw a news report, the other day there was somebody talking about they were from bed bath and beyond explaining their their bad quarter previous quarter.
David Avrin: And the spokesperson for the company was talking about there had challenges with supply chain and people weren't finding some of the items they wanted and I turned to my wife and I said that is just such a load of crap.
David Avrin: It had nothing to do with supply chain, you ever gone to bed bath and beyond, and you were frustrated you couldn't find something know we bought people are buying it on Amazon.
David Avrin: People aren't frustrated with with bed bath and beyond they're not going there and and this this kills any opportunity of me key noting the bed bath and.
Adam Toporek: Beyond to another good one, I think you know I clear clearly not know, but the.
David Avrin: Reality is we're always thought I mean when all things being equal, and often you know, in a market replete with quality.
David Avrin: Many things are equal, we can get it to us faster, and so, but it's not just the things that we want faster, but something you alluded to before it's answers faster its problem resolution faster.
David Avrin: talk to me about what what you're seeing there in the marketplace.
David Avrin: In terms of how the smaller companies are are shortening the process responding quicker reducing some of the rules and regulations that are causing delay.
Adam Toporek: Right, I mean I think there's a number of aspects and you mentioned technology earlier that's one of them, because the good news is sure Amazon is always going to have a technological advantage of.
Adam Toporek: pretty much everyone, but there is so much affordable, you know what's called SAS software or services.
Adam Toporek: Software available to small businesses now, that is, you know basically really affordable for businesses of any size to be responsive to just add a chat widget on their website, the harder part.
Adam Toporek: Adding the chat widgets easy having the person to actually you know staff, the chat widget so the more difficult part of it.
David Avrin: world of talent to draw from, but there are resources available for everybody to.
Adam Toporek: incorporate some of those processes well exactly and that's the point, so I think a lot of the smart small businesses the smart businesses that got the memo are doing two things.
Adam Toporek: Look at it sort of offense and Defense Defense are trying to reduce hassle right they're trying to make it their experience as frictionless as possible.
Adam Toporek: But on the other hand, and we haven't really talked about customer emotion today they're trying to do, the thing that differentiates them from Amazon Okay, the problem with bed bath and beyond, I guess i'm not going to be key noting for them.
David Avrin: Either after this is.
Adam Toporek: What happens when you go in, there is it anything special is it something that makes you go I would rather go in there, then hit the button you hit the button on my phone while i'm waiting on my wife and i'm in the parking lot to shop to shop because.
David Avrin: that's how easy.
David Avrin: I think the only thing and it's what all retail has is the ability to see and touch.
David Avrin: But we are more and more treating them as showrooms.
David Avrin: I mean I freely admit i'm the i'm the guy who went to bestbuy because I needed a really high end camera for my studio.
David Avrin: And I went there and I wasn't gonna buy it online I went in there, I touched it, I felt it I looked at I.
David Avrin: Compared a couple.
David Avrin: found the one I wanted pulled it up on on Amazon it hit click as I walked out of the store.
David Avrin: You know.
David Avrin: Bad about that it's the reality today and so tell us kind of figure out.
David Avrin: Where their competitive advantages are but anyway, to answer your question which may have been rhetorical, which is what advantage, do they have, I think it's just that.
David Avrin: or even the instant gratification but many things on Amazon and get the same day it's a crazy time for business right now trying to keep up, but I think it's exciting when you realize that it's also bringing forth so many new technologies and resources for them to keep pace.
Adam Toporek: 100% and The thing is, you know we're seeing retail space has been filling in hasn't been quite as disastrous, as we all thought it was going to be.
Adam Toporek: The catches, where the example we've been talking about is a mass merchandiser that's a tough game yeah.
Adam Toporek: Right, but there are other business.
Adam Toporek: models.
Adam Toporek: where you can differentiate right more crass smaller where you can make it an experience, if you sell art supplies, you could have an art night.
Adam Toporek: Right, you can do things that are experiential.
Adam Toporek: That that differentiate you things that Amazon can't do, for example, right, so you know it's funny because you and I are in the experience business like this is what we talked about, we talked about experience and that's exactly the I think the.
Adam Toporek: Retailers you know that our marquee names that are winning.
David Avrin: That are driving yeah.
Adam Toporek: They are finding ways to make it more experiential not just to your point near the touch see feel because I don't really care if I touch my I don't know the new basket I hanging in my shower.
Adam Toporek: Right right I don't need to touch it feel it or see it I just need to click it and get it out of my life.
David Avrin: exactly right, I spoke over over Kobe I spoke for the Middle Eastern and North Africa shopping Center association.
David Avrin: which would have been a lot more fun to do in Dubai or Riyadh than doing it virtually, but it was covert at the.
David Avrin: Time and i'm actually heading back over to Dubai soon, but what was interesting was they were already struggling, these are all the malls high end malls Dubai Riyadh.
David Avrin: Abu Dhabi all of this, as well, they were already struggling a bit because you know they got alibaba they've got Amazon and people shopping habits, a change.
David Avrin: Well then, of course, Cobra comes and they're shut down and then the big conversation it wasn't his.
David Avrin: Excuse me um, how do we, how do we bring them back in part of the message was recognized what has changed in the world, yes, people are going to come back and one of the things you said that the the death was probably overrated.
David Avrin: Because we need community, we need to gather we remember the times at fast times at Richmond higher.
David Avrin: Whatever and orange Julius at the mall.
Adam Toporek: You and I do.
David Avrin: cinnabon I know we do um but, but the other thing is recognize that.
David Avrin: That.
David Avrin: they're going to have to morph and change their mindset of what their role is and so you're going to see delivery from the gap you're going to see people sampling food at a.
David Avrin: Lower version of a restaurant at chili's to or something else finding out that they really like something and then have.
David Avrin: Your we're going to cut this out.
David Avrin: spasm I did good for most of this.
Adam Toporek: Right.
David Avrin: All right, get centered again.
David Avrin: Like a chili's to or something else, where they realize they like the product and then maybe next time they'll have it delivered right or retail shops taking converting that back room storage into shipping.
David Avrin: Right is that omni channel, no matter how you want to buy it or you want to sample it maybe they come in, they use it as a showroom as like a tesla in the mall.
David Avrin: That to me is really exciting there's been just a big shift, even on the retail how they have to look at how they do business and how they're engaging with their customers.
Adam Toporek: 100% I spoke to the furniture industry association, if you want to go and one of the things that was working with them is it's it's not simple, but it is simple, the question is simple, the answers not.
Adam Toporek: Simple, what is your competitive advantage in today's market yeah where can you differentiate your experience what can you do, that your competitor can't do right, I mean because furniture industry they're competing with the furniture store down the street and they're competing with.
David Avrin: You know wayfarer and.
David Avrin: lock and.
Adam Toporek: yeah and all those yeah.
Adam Toporek: So there.
Adam Toporek: You know they've they've got to compete on on two levels.
Adam Toporek: Right and that's and that becomes a very interesting challenge like what can you do, how do you build a sense of community, how do you, and now the good news is they have high ticket.
Adam Toporek: Items right they have.
Adam Toporek: Right they've got things where there is more of a discussion there is almost more of what can be more of a client type relationship, which is not something bed bath and beyond really has.
Adam Toporek: So that there's there's there's runway there to achieve that there's runway to find those ways to connect and do that.
Adam Toporek: But you know I think the landscapes, particularly fascinating because any the interesting one was when I was doing my research is that there were just companies that had not adopted digital.
David Avrin: I was like I can't you can't do that.
David Avrin: And you know oftentimes when it happens, some of these multi generational businesses it's when the cakes over and the kid who's 40 or 50 years old and mom and dad they finally.
David Avrin: And let's bring this thing in the modern century but it's not even an option anymore, I mean it's going to weakness and we can lament the loss of some well known brands.
David Avrin: You know, toys R Us or whatever else but anybody suffering the lack of toys anybody struggling to find toys today, of course, not right it's because those disruptions those.
David Avrin: they're all benefit us and the ones that drag their feet, you know I mean we can't overtly say they're going to go out of business, but they're going to struggle.
David Avrin: You know, you want to compete you gotta you gotta recognize world there's like this, we could talk forever i've got an obligation to my listeners well to.
David Avrin: Do what a treat.
David Avrin: I love connecting with colleagues and talking about stuff that we do together and enhancing each other's knowledge, I really appreciate your time um hang on after this so just stay put we'll talk really quickly on the other side.
David Avrin: Of this big thanks to.
David Avrin: Adam to port for being my guest here today, remind you i'm also really quickly if they want to get in touch with you how do they do that.
Adam Toporek: Customers that sick COM, that is the best way i'm on some of the.
David Avrin: Social to the way too fast.
Adam Toporek: way to.
Adam Toporek: Just moving for you.
Why.
David Avrin: we're trying to get your business to go ahead.
Adam Toporek: I appreciate it brother customers that stick.com that is home base, you can always reach me there.
David Avrin: Outstanding you can pick up a copy of my new book the morning huddle powerful customer experience conversations to wake you up.
David Avrin: And shake you up and win more business matter of fact, all of my books that are strategically located next to my head on the video version of this podcast.
David Avrin: Are on Amazon, many of them are in other languages and audio book as well be sure to click to like this podcast subscribe and leave a comment that's, the most important part, even if it's just a couple of words.
David Avrin: Go look up at him to pork he's a really brilliant at what he does in his book be your customers hero is a is a must read as well, you can learn more about my keynote speaking.
David Avrin: And my coaching and consulting at David African calm thanks for tuning into the customer experience advantage podcast remember leave a comment click the little bell you'll get notifications big thanks to Adam Toporek, for being my guest here today i'm David.