Don Fox Interview, Chairman of Firehouse Subs
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Eating out has changed significantly over the years, even just in my lifetime. We've gone from the classic sit down dining to drive up, to drive through, to order up front, to grab and go, and even a big growth recently in ghost kitchens. So what's new in the dining industry? And, more importantly, what's next?
Today we have a real treat on the podcast. I sat down with restaurant industry icon and chairman of Firehouse Subs, Don fox. We're going to talk about where this constantly evolving industry is headed next and what that means to all of us in business. Today I'm talking to restaurant industry veteran Don Fox.
David Avrin: hey? It's David Avrin, and welcome to the why customers leave podcast. I'm really excited about this today because it's, you know. There, there's certain brands, certain iconic brands that that you may frequent as a customer ones that you admire as a fellow business professional, and and this is one of them. I think the the story of
David Avrin: Firehouse subs was one that has been well told many times. There's a lot of information online, but it's it's the the leader behind it, and the and the insights. As I was actually talking to a friend who had suggested this interview. So you know there's there there's there's certain people who have been through the trenches and have seen so many changes
David Avrin: over the years, and and the recommendation was, You got to talk to Don Fox. This guy has been through everything recently made a transition from a CEO and president to chairman of firehouse ups, but also some significant roles with the the restaurant industry and restaurant leadership. Let me do a quick introduction, and then i'll say Hi officially. Here Don Fox is chairman of Firehouse subs, where he supports the new president and the rest of the brand. He's a restaurant industry veteran of
David Avrin: 50 years. He's worked for Burger King for 23 years, and spent the past 2 2 decades at firehouse, subs, including serving as President and CEO from all the way back in 2,009 until recently, in 2,023, under his leadership the restaurant brand grew to more than 1,200 restaurants and 46 states, Puerto Rico and Canada, and recognized as one of the best franchises in the country. Fox had been named operator of the year by Nations restaurant news, joining a long list of restaurant luminaries. He was also previously ranked Number One
David Avrin: one on fast casual.com top, 100 Movers and Shakers list, and received a prestigious silver plate award from the International Food Manufacturers Association.
David Avrin: Long introduction. I'm a Fan Don welcome to the show
Don Fox: Hey, David Great to be with you today, looking forward to it.
David Avrin: Yeah, Well, listen. You have been through so much and and in sort of vicariously. All of us have as well right for those of us, for all of us who've grown up eating out, or now eating out means almost eating in with, take out, or whatever that might be.
David Avrin: Talk to us a little bit about about your journey, and I really want to talk about the changes that have happened in the delivery model, and how we look at how we access food
David Avrin: on the go on the run, the what was for so many of us just a special night out with family, maybe once or twice a year has become an almost daily occurrence. Tell us a little bit about your journey before we dig into all of that.
Don Fox: Well, sure, you know, when I when I started in the restaurant business back in 1974 washing dishes and a little Italian restaurant in
Don Fox: Lakewood, New Jersey. Fast food was really still when it's earlier saying is, when you think about it, the industry was only about 20 years old at that at that point a given that most of the
Don Fox: largest fast food concept. So we know of today really started in the
Don Fox: etc., and it was that day and age wasn't that far removed from the start of of drive throughs
Don Fox: I can. I could still remember the air hose bells going off when you rolled over them with your tires. That was that was high tech at the time. The signal, the arrival in the drive through Link. So yeah, I've seen both as a consumer and somebody working in the business. I've seen a lot of change over all these years, and
Don Fox: you know, in in some ways well arranged to to be seen if it'll come full circle if we start to transition back to more dining occasions. But
Don Fox: now you lead into your questions talking about delivery and and the the just the nature of how people are consuming food. It's it's changed in very rapid
Don Fox: order. Here Pandemic skirted along.
Don Fox: You know I I've seen all this happen in in in in real time. It's just to relate it back to my experience with fire outs. More recently. Well, recently, over the last 20 years.
Don Fox: I think it's relative.
Don Fox: you know. for for many years was quite a bit different, as a brand, especially in the sub sounds category, because the majority of our business was dining.
Don Fox: In fact, in the 2,012 we about 53% of the business was talking into that. That was a bit different for a sandwich.
Don Fox: Sure, that's how it was. Take out. But i'm really starting from that point, not just for fire house. But the'll let it be started to see gradual declines in the amount of dining business. And really it's technology that is spurred all this.
Don Fox: It's. It's not just technology, really. From the restaurant industry people change their patterns. They're viewing the media, how they spend their how they how they use the rival time it's changed dramatically, and that's manifested itself in different ways that people
Don Fox: can consume food, and for hours about it, both in the nuances macro micro in terms of the the changes that that that's brought about operationally in in restaurants. It's made it much more difficult.
Don Fox: I will say, for for the restaurant industry
Don Fox: today. I'm
Don Fox: Yoda. The restaurant business
Don Fox: used to be much more linear.
Don Fox: you know, in terms of a people queued up. I mean, it was a line.
Don Fox: I, and and so the whole processing, the production.
Don Fox: everything was simpler. But now you have what what I've talked about for a long time. It's been simultaneous order, rival, and and everybody in the industry is still is still, I think, struggling with that quite a bit. Nobody's really got that nail in terms of how to manage all these.
Don Fox: You know different channels of trade that are coming in simultaneously and into the restaurants
David Avrin: Right? It's Also, it's also gotta be difficult from a staffing perspective because you're training on Mobile, I remember, was a big deal when you could fax in your order, but then you were hoping somebody was making sandwiches would look over at the fax machine and have that available. So now you've got a real me building of sort of the manual process
David Avrin: of putting food together and the technology of delivering orders and the tracking. And then you add
David Avrin: the pick up or the delivery or the in-house.
David Avrin: It's it's it's gotta be different with a very transient population of people coming in and out.
Don Fox: Well, sure. Well, again. you know, managing the guest Expectations in this environment is increasingly difficult. And what's a lot of pressure on the on the team members. you know, in the restaurants. I I think a lot of people listening to this can relate to this. So you go into a restaurant as a I'll call it a traditional customer. You go to
Don Fox: get online in a in a restaurant.
Don Fox: and and maybe you're one of very few customers that are in the restaurant at that point in time. But the production area the restaurant, especially if it's visible to you is is buzzing
Don Fox: no paper
Don Fox: very animated and working on orders, and but very few people in the restaurant and at your service
Don Fox: isn't fast
Don Fox: it as a customer. It can be very off putting you like. Hey, what! What are you? What are you working on? I'm one of only a couple of people here, and it's taking an in order amount of time for me to get my order. All you're you're. You're devoting your attention to people who aren't even here, face to face with you.
Don Fox: very difficult at Difficult for a lot of customers to understand, and then very difficult for the team members to to deal with, because you've got
Don Fox: that because that personal interaction, having that person in front of you, eyeball to eyeball is very, very powerful.
Don Fox: and and a and a challenge more or more difficult, I would say in many respects to be in the restaurant industry today than the ever been, especially for a a team member.
David Avrin: Oh, I I can expect so I think we can. Also we look at sort of comparing and contrasting the original simplicity. I mean, when you watch the the movie, the founder right with Michael Keaton about Ray Crock. That was so revolutionary. The idea of the takeaway and the wrapped in paper and stuff that you threw away right he was, you know.
David Avrin: saying in the movie right now, where's the silverware? Right? That was a whole paradigm shop shift right there. But now everybody is expected to deliver in an Omni Channel environment. Talk about the contrast between the traditional sit down restaurant, and how that's
David Avrin: perceived in the expectations today versus a quick serve and a fast casual, or are they all sort of expected to be able to do the same kinds of things.
Don Fox: I I think, in many respects there. The expectation for the guest is that you're going to be able to execute in every element of it that again, depending on the nuances in the Channel.
Don Fox: So if i'm going into a fast casual or a quick service restaurant, and if I choose to be a dining guest. I expect that restaurant to fire on all cylinders with with all aspects of that experience.
Don Fox: No, I happen to. I was just traveling
Don Fox: this past weekend up in New Jersey, and I went into a an it was a national chain copy.
Don Fox: sure, sure. and
Don Fox: i'm sitting in the lobby area with my family, and and I guess walks in
Don Fox: another guess, and we were the only other people in there. So another gift walks in. Woman comes in, and there is a kiosk
Don Fox: in the in the lobby with it, with it very
Don Fox: overt. Sign on it, inviting
Don Fox: the person to to use that technology to order.
Don Fox: and and this so not a not an older woman, I'm say not young, but I just call it younger middle age. So so the technology should have been for and
Don Fox: to her.
Don Fox: but she was very off put by by the by this.
Don Fox: But her interpretation was, this is where I have to order
Don Fox: right. Correct. Her expectation was, No, somebody's gonna take my order here face to face, and she was as a customer. She was rather snooty about it, and even makes a
Don Fox: makes eye contact with us sitting at a table. I can't believe that they want me to use this. I can't like go, order! And and and the manager of the location over here, and he's saying, oh, no, no, you can. You can order your editor the whole thing. It was so interesting as a professional watching it, because something this whole, this whole experience, is a disaster
Don Fox: for so so, because the guests, coming in expecting personal service interesting, laid up the manager willing to to offer it.
Don Fox: But there there was, there was such a disconnect, and all, and the whole thing ended up with the person with the woman walking out
Don Fox: India, and this this in 2, because
Don Fox: they wouldn't take cash.
Don Fox: Oh, wow! So so again. So the customer walks in. They're expecting a certain experience in a case that you have to be to be dealt with individually.
David Avrin: and then it doesn't get it doesn't. Get delivered on to that. So do you see this? Do you see this as an inevitable transition period? There will always be those who are the technology natives who are here who prefer to do things digitally. And then the older people
David Avrin: in our category, who would just give me an opportunity to for a real person, and is that hampered by the challenges in labor shortage, or is it hampered by this enthusiasm for bringing technology and to replace the humans?
Don Fox: Where's the the balance? And is it? It's it's it's very company any in the end. I think the the driving, the main driving forces what is the guest want? And I and I think brands are at a
Don Fox: not just brands restaurant operators
Don Fox: or in a it's a challenging time. Because you're sometimes you're picking and choosing
Don Fox: your and it's it's it's complicated formula in terms of
Don Fox: you know, and I I I don't even know the best way to phrase it. It's not about, because what's best for the guest is generally what's best for the business.
Don Fox: it, one would think. But I've I've seen so many times at various points in in my career, with variety of brands people to get.
Don Fox: They'll say what's best for the business, and sometimes it's not what's best for the guess, but it's they're looking at it so technically
Don Fox: I mean a great. There's tough decisions because it is very difficult to be everything to everybody
Don Fox: there. There was a a a fast casual brand years ago in the burger category that tried to go capitalist.
Don Fox: and it it failed.
Don Fox: The failed, and they and they walked away from now now in other other parts of the world there are brands. Some. Some of the Rbi brands have moved much farther to digital, because in a particular country and a particular society, it's it's embraced by
Don Fox: your Europe is much more like that right now. Yeah, absolutely
Don Fox: right. And and so in the in the Us. I think we're still in this ray area, this transitional phase eventually, and I think most people would agree with this eventually over time. It will be increasingly digital and so on. But but
Don Fox: no, to to my knowledge, nobody's made that leap yet to where you can do it in a way that doesn't alienate
Don Fox: an important part of your clientele that you need sometimes that that that that amount of the customer base that you're going to alienate is is the profitable piece in in the sense that
Don Fox: you know that that's that's that's the amount of business is taking you above your break, even.
Don Fox: and you're just you're just lopping off the cream. If you, if you don't satisfy that
David Avrin: we, you see a lot of experimentation right now, and I don't know it's not. It's not uneducated experimentation, because there's certainly case studies, and we're seeing this being adopted and and embraced within other sectors of retail as well.
David Avrin: But there's still a lot of sort of let's try this out in a couple of locations. Let's do some test markets. I might challenge that a search than that. It's always. You know the first criteria is what's best for the customers, because there's a lot of people going to be resistant. Now, I also am not naive enough to think that there isn't an in inevitability
David Avrin: about all of it, you know, and the kiosks, and and replacing everything else but it's. It's clearly a challenge. How much do you think, Covid, I mean. I think we understand how much Covid sort of drove some of these innovations, but how much is Covid and and this
David Avrin: podcast needs to be a little bit evergreen. But how much has it been? A bit of a crutch in terms of brands, delaying the implementation, delaying the return of seating, and some of those things as well does it, giving them a little more, a little extra buffer time to get some of these things in place.
Don Fox: I you know, I don't think that
Don Fox: it's. It's really
Don Fox: delayed. I I I think, what the the main effect of probably was. It hasten
Don Fox: changes in consumer behavior
Don Fox: expectations. Yeah, because nobody I I I was.
Don Fox: It's always I I always stop myself whenever I catch myself talking. It absolutes.
Don Fox: There's
Don Fox: the tendency was for most, if not all, friends, to to be
Don Fox: decreasing their footprints before the pandemic
Don Fox: going down. People are generally downsizing
Don Fox: and the $64,000 question. The proverbial one was Well, Gosh! You know what is the size that we're going to need long term.
David Avrin: Nobody was talking about long term. I'm going to increase the size it's we're we're we're going to downsize. Now let me let me clarify real quick. We do that. Are you talking about the size of the individual footprint of units or the number of units, the the the the the the size of the facilities for new prototypes, is moving forward. Yes, yeah, we're we're looking to solve this salad is all pre pandemic.
Don Fox: So sure.
Don Fox: Yeah. So so the pandemic
Don Fox: hastened the adoption of what premise channels.
Don Fox: So I I haven't spoken to a peer in the industry
Don Fox: who's dining in business is higher now than it was before the mandate.
Don Fox: It's all it's just a matter of the great. It has come back up from where it was, but because it's worse, it was 0. If you close your dining room. Yeah, for example, just using some real numbers within the firehouse system
Don Fox: before the pandemic.
Don Fox: Our dining business was about 37% of sales so it was down from a peak of 53% in 2,012 steady decline over all those years.
Don Fox: A. And it was still declining at the point of the pandemic. I I talked about this openly with our franchise community and our operators to support this.
Don Fox: How well was it going to go? I
Don Fox: quality research. They could point to that or predict it.
Don Fox: but I knew it then reached the bottom
Don Fox: Pandemic comes. It's 0 now. It's been building back up, you know. So now it's about 20%. And do I expect it to go back up to the 37%
Don Fox: that it was app. No, I don't because there was everything. Societally was was shown the decline, but but embedded in all that is, is the issue of restaurant design.
Don Fox: How many feature we'd be building for what type of footprint and those are long term decisions, and that's what makes this a complicated business a. And in our segment, where a firehouse operates, we got a little bit better, because you're not talking about the level of capital investment that you would have if you're doing a full service
Don Fox: as well. Dining restaurant, you know, doing something 4,000 plus square feet now over for us. It was the difference between doing a leaning towards a 2,000 square foot, 2,200 square feet before the pandemic. And now, maybe looking at 1,600 square feet.
Don Fox: that that's not an insect that would get a difference, especially when you look at long term, and the impact on rent costs build our costs as as well operational cost, efficiency, and the smaller units.
Don Fox: But can you Can you imagine?
Don Fox: But I don't think this will happen. But you think about making that decision for for us in our system. It's a 10 year franchise agreement. That's about the length of the of the minimum, like the time that you're looking at on the investment
Don Fox: again less than you're talking about. Full service, restaurant and piece of real estate. We're 2030, 40 years. You're thinking along those those lines.
Don Fox: But still, once you make the decision you're you're you're stuck
Don Fox: with it, and trying and trying to predict over that length of time how that dynamics gonna change is is almost almost impossible.
Don Fox: So
David Avrin: and there's no variables that are coming into that decision that we really had never thought about 5 years ago of what might affect consumer behavior.
Don Fox: Yeah, not yeah, never, never to to that extent. But but again, you know, I I think, back to where we were before the pandemic. We I
Don Fox: We had already been seeing that decline for the 7 almost 8 years leading into into the pandemic. So we were having those discussions
Don Fox: you know already about downsizing. Not even the discussions when you've already made some practical decisions the last couple of years before the pandemic
Don Fox: to to bring the units down a little bit in in size. But again the pandemic just accelerated all of that we had made those moves with with more confidence, as as a lot of other brands are. It's it's not an uncommon theme out in the industry. For yeah, people would be. They could just
Don Fox: designing out for much smaller dining footprints, and and even going to, you know, increasingly looking at.
Don Fox: try to only type of concept. So
Don Fox: those kitchen, some of those as well.
David Avrin: No, you please go ahead. I was gonna say the the the ghost kitchen. It concepts are are fascinating to me, and and I still think
Don Fox: that a lot of learning is got to be done there. I think the challenge with them generally is that it's difficult for a lot of concepts to generate the type of volume they need through that single channel of trade.
Don Fox: even though you've got certain economies and efficiencies within within the ghost kitchen, still in that comes married with a lot lower volume.
David Avrin: and I might say it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it, you know it's it's it's the opportunity. Yeah, Go ahead.
Don Fox: Yeah. And and one of the one of the drawbacks that you have is when you don't have the physical space that's visible to the guest, you don't have the same level of brand awareness
David Avrin: right?
Don Fox: So some of our, some, some of the highest volume. Third-party delivery businesses that I've seen in our from out of traditional locations because there's awareness of the brand in the marketplace generated just by the the street side presence
Don Fox: of the Us. Take away the street size, presence, and disability. And then the question is, why how do you really create the awareness.
David Avrin: Absolutely. Let's talk for a second from the consumers perspective about what's working on what isn't we we kind of talked about briefly about all the changes in the expectations on the individual restaurants to be able to provide, pick up delivery app ordering in house. Let's talk about from the consumers perspective.
David Avrin: what's working for them, and what isn't and what needs to be fixed. And we don't need to talk about fire, so we can talk about industry in general, Where there? Where is there some lags
in? In adoption of of technologies and behavior that relates to current expectations? What's working for consumers, and what what needs to be repaired.
Don Fox: I think there's a lot of things that are working pretty well.
Don Fox: I I think that.
Don Fox: generally speaking.
Don Fox: from the consumer point of view third-party delivery services are working pretty well.
Don Fox: I think the fact that you've got a
Don Fox: a a a cost to the consumer.
Don Fox: and i'll, I'll say an inflated cost in the sense that with the delivery charges it's a more expensive meal.
Don Fox: But but for consumers where that's, if that's in their real house. you know that that business is maintained at a higher level. Let's say that I
Don Fox: would have fought it would
Don Fox: at the stage after the pandemic. There's still a whole conversation to be had about how sustainable that business is for third party delivery companies themselves. Maybe that's for as for another episode, probably with a different guess. But but but it's, but it's all in it's it's all interesting, I mean. Let's let's stay on that one for a second, because I know one of the challenges for the restaurant themselves. Is that whole
David Avrin: losing control of the last mile
David Avrin: delivery, and somebody who has in this age of social proof and and yelp and everything else.
David Avrin: It's a challenge. When something comes cold, something goes to the wrong house, and who gets the bad review. It's the restaurant.
David Avrin: and they don't control that last mile. How is the industry
Don Fox: addressing that? Or there's just an in, you know. Where. What do we do with that part of it
Don Fox: exist? I mean, they happen they're not to the degree that it creates a significant barrier to usage by the customer.
Don Fox: nor a overwhelming tendency of operators
Don Fox: to shoe away the opportunity.
Don Fox: Yeah, back at the beginning of a third party delivery.
Don Fox: I will
Don Fox: confess this is probably about like 2,01516. Ish.
Don Fox: Yeah, I was probably like a lot of my peers. I was in the camp of saying, oh, no, that's we wouldn't do that lose control of
Don Fox: you know part of the experience. Don't have the customer data. We would talk a lot about among peers and the Industry Food Safety concerns
Don Fox: right. Yeah, that's understandably.
Don Fox: I think, because it was new to everybody. We're always used to thinking about
Don Fox: food. Safety is always paramount, and you know, up to the point we give the product to the consumer.
Don Fox: We're controlling those elements after that. That's up to them when they're going to so consume it.
Don Fox: What the success they, as people in fire else
Don Fox: certainly bound this to be the case.
Don Fox: Well, we started experimenting with it, and we saw the appetite among consumers for the service.
Don Fox: Well, the prevalent Poppy, K. Well, we'll figure this out.
Don Fox: We'll figure out how to work in our for to be.
David Avrin: because because for the the the customer who finds value in in that delivery experience.
Don Fox: Yeah, you know the the the other concerns became secondary tertiary to it, and so so none of them have been barriers in the end.
Don Fox: So we in a perfect world. We want to try to improve upon some of those things so sure. Sure we would. But but not but not. But I don't. I don't I I don't spend time losing sleep at night.
Don Fox: You on those on those types of things we're thinking that in any way. You know we're we're gonna turn a turn away. The opportunity or not not Take advantage of that channel of of trade. Because again, the consumer appetite forward is
Don Fox: is is so strong. I I think that in the end the the solutions. the way, the the way to make improvements. our
Don Fox: the burden is going to be more on the third party delivery companies.
Don Fox: because to the extent that
Don Fox: improving those things, even when it comes to providing certain consumer data, and so on to the extent that that makes the third Party Delivery Company more valuable partner.
Don Fox: and puts them in a superior competitive position
Don Fox: versus their competition.
Don Fox: They'll embrace those things
Don Fox: and and and bring about those improvements, because there there is at least in the dynamic today that I I I believe they're in a better position to to do it. I do. I do think they will. Overtime.
David Avrin: Yeah. Well, this listen, but also changing expectations along those lines, even seeing big changes in what was this historic, very convenient drive through is even some significant modifications, and drive through you're seeing what the chick-fil-a of people taking the order earlier in line. We're seeing lines split into 2 or around the sides of the building
David Avrin: once again getting back to the question of sort of what's working? And where is the industry changing? Where? What? What do you see next? In terms of the next level of convenience the next
David Avrin: It lanes for app ordering and drive through and and pick up and delivery, and all of those. How far does this go in terms of convenience?
Don Fox: I I think the
Don Fox: the main opportunity is to help
Don Fox: a guest, or well, let me rephrase it.
Don Fox: We've got to do a better job. The industry or the opportunities there of managing the guest's expectation.
Don Fox: I I think, when you communicate well, when you manage the guest expectation for
Don Fox: the amount of time it's going to take to get their order, and they you consistently, consistently execute on your on that, whatever promise you're giving to the guest.
Don Fox: then that that's the real key to a better experience being dependable and keeping the guest informed. Executing behind
Don Fox: a lot of that required is going to be. Those are tech technology driven.
Don Fox: Thanks, bye. But I don't think it's necessarily
Don Fox: what's what's most critical is not being empirically the fastest
David Avrin: right? Right? There's a sacrifice that comes with that inherently, whether it's food quality or something else is, basically manage the part that you can without losing the part that you need.
Don Fox: But being being consistent, being dependable, knowing that. Or here's a better way of looking at it, or of saying it. I think
Don Fox: you've got to understand the consideration set that you want to be in.
Don Fox: you know I i'll. I'll put it in in terms of a firehouse.
Don Fox: We've made a lot of progress. We're working on a lot of things now to be faster.
Don Fox: Probably Won't be the fastest, just because of the nature of our what it takes to have a steam. So the the process by which we we heat the meat and the cheese, and so on.
Don Fox: Oh. so it's not important to be the fastest, but we have to be faster, because that puts us in more consideration sets.
Don Fox: I've often said that with Firehouse years ago that if a customer had.
Don Fox: if they didn't.
Don Fox: if they didn't have more than 30 min for launch, if all they had was 30 min or less from from the time they leave their place of work or their home to consume it. Get back if you, if you didn't have more than 30 min, we we might not be in your consideration Set
Don Fox: well at any given day for lunch.
Don Fox: That's a lot of people and all likelihood in any given trade area.
Don Fox: And if and if that's the proposition that on any given day you're you're getting ruled out by by people who love you. who love your food, love the experience. But turn on the consideration, said boy
Don Fox: you we'd better really work hard. I getting him in their consideration set.
Don Fox: And yeah, it doesn't take being the fastest to do that. But it takes me fast enough. and then consistently executing on it. And, by the way you've got to also. Then communicate it to the guest to
Don Fox: hey? We've had great success with that with our brand, and going back to
Don Fox: some things that are working well. Now, what we call rapid rescue, which is our online ordering or through the app or on the desktop.
Don Fox: Place the order. and you. Just you walk in, you pick it up, and you go
Don Fox: that even though we've got some inherent longer time in our food prep.
Don Fox: Now I can do that. At the same time the person's traveling there.
Don Fox: so I can be in many respects. I can be just as fast and just as convenient as somebody
Don Fox: taking advantage of the fastest driver of the that's out here. So so so for us that was that was a game changer, and so thankfully we had that before. The
what do you think about organizations that
David Avrin: have internal ideas and concepts? We want to shift towards this. We want to push more, do more electronic, more app order, and others who.
David Avrin: through their internal process and mechanisms, really push their customers
David Avrin: to those particular devices as opposed to making them options. I'll give you an example of doing going through a drive through. They had some breakfast deal of of 2 for $2, and I went through the drive through. Nobody else was in line. It was towards the end of breakfast, and they sit, and I tried to order, and they said, No, you have to do it through the app, and I said, Well, i'm i'm at the window right now, and they said, No, it's gotta be through the app. And I said, Why, don't have that, and said, Well, you can pull over and download it, and I thought, well thank you for that permission.
David Avrin: And so because I do this for a living, and because I speak and I consoled, I pulled over in the process. I had to download the app.
David Avrin: I had to pull my wallet out. I had to enter my credit card information I had to put on my now I understand why they want that information, but for me. It got to the point I would have had I not been trying to gather, and I would have just driven away. I mean there, there's just no point in doing that. I went to a a breakfast Bagel place that will national chain remain unnamed, and met a colleague
David Avrin: for to go meet for Bryce. We were just catching up. There were no tables. This was a week ago, and I said, Why do you have no tables? And they said, oh, because of Covid. I said that was 3 years ago.
David Avrin: and they and they're like, yeah, we don't, You know I was that another fast casual, fresh Mexican, and I do have chipotle. I know we don't get because of Covid. I said you, because of all those
those Chalula related covid exposures.
David Avrin: You know at At what point is that gonna not be an excuse, but like, anyway? But that's me
David Avrin: back to the technology. What do you think about those who who make you do their technology in order to get what you want
is that best for us?
Don Fox: I I think that you know, for any, for any given concept. if their business model is that within a certain trade area that they're
Don Fox: doing business in that they they describe where they define as a trade area for their unit
Don Fox: that there's enough people that are inclined to follow suit with the way they feel it's most efficient and beneficial to the business. A Serve loop.
Don Fox: Well, great, here's Here's the potential problem. That's their calculus right there'll be enough people who will be compliant that it's worth part of my language pissing off the few who
Don Fox: and and you'll get certain efficiencies operationally. And that's why pandemic. There are people that they realize there's sufficiency. I mean, Look at the brands. They've eliminated certain skews or reduced the menu. They've been afraid before they gave them a license to so great, and they feel back
Don Fox: okay. So
Don Fox: where where people they were brands, they find the biggest challenge
Don Fox: is that
Don Fox: big picture. What it might do is, it may reduce the number of units or the size of the trade areas that you can develop because that you restrict it, you, you, you you reduce the number of people that are going to put you into consideration set.
Don Fox: which means generally, I need a bigger trade area. I need. I need to increase it, and that has a flow through effect to how you're going to scale.
Don Fox: and you know a a brand that maybe this is. Maybe i'm going to exaggerate this a little bit, but but maybe maybe 10 years ago a brand might have said, Well, yeah, I think I can develop 10,000
Don Fox: restaurants
Don Fox: in the Us. Well, well, now, when you go ahead and you restrict your usage, and in these ways you change the parameters and the rules, and you change consideration that Well, now, maybe you're only going to be a 5,000.
Don Fox: You're the problem, really. you know, until
Don Fox: but the people in these behavior.
David Avrin: right? And the people who patronize those 5,000 units are more profitable.
David Avrin: They're more efficient. And that's I mean what you're giving us. And for our audience as well is sort of a peak behind the scenes. As to what some of those corporate conversations are that drive those policies and behaviors, and those conversations are going on every day.
Don Fox: Yes, and and by by the way. you know, even within a a country as diverse as the United States. It's it's these things are monolithic
Don Fox: it.
Don Fox: you know there's a lot of stratification within the consumer base and different, You know regionality. It it's a very, very, very few things you can paint with a a such a broad rush
Don Fox: and assume that it's the same in where I mean the the use of again third party digital ordering, for example, is it very different in parts of
Don Fox: you know various parts of the country a little. The West coast, generally speaking, in California. Much you know higher. Some of the higher third party delivery of you know it.
Don Fox: Yeah.
David Avrin: Yeah. Well, this and and for another conversation we haven't even delved into the
David Avrin: the innovation among flavors and the International, and how that's driving behaviors and some of the well known brands. The Bennigan is the you know, the the friendlies and the others were following by the wayside because
David Avrin: we changed.
David Avrin: They're as good as they ever were. But we've changed. But there was also something very interesting that I that I saw that there was a tremendous downturn
David Avrin: in breakfast serial sales.
because how we eat
David Avrin: has changed, and it's so much more of the grabbing go. It's so much more, and it's very difficult to eat the bowl of cereal while you're driving in the car. And so they've had different. So it but it's all it all feeds into.
David Avrin: How we have changed our expectations, our behaviors, our preferences, and the restaurant industry is one of those that is is constantly tweaking and constantly evolving. I would love to have another conversation and and pick this up and talk about where the changes are. We're out of time right now, Don Fuck. Such a such a pleasure to talk to you, and to be able to gain insights from your vast experience. If people want to get in touch with you, I know that you are are taking much more of a a chairman role
David Avrin: with firehouse but broad industry expertise. If people want to reach out to you and and learn more, how do they reach you?
Don Fox: Sure, Probably the best thing is my email. That's an easy one to remember, Don fox@aol.com.
Don Fox: I was gonna say that so long. But when you get your name it's first, the last day of LED you you can't give it up.
David Avrin: Yeah, I same thing I go. I own averincom. I own David averon.com because I did it in the early days back, when I was putting my partridge family 8 track in the machine back in the day.
David Avrin: Listen, hey, don't they hang on 1 s. We'll talk on the other side a big thanks to Don. I want to remind everybody you can pick up a copy of my new book, the Morning Huddle.
David Avrin: Powerful customer experience conversations to wake you up and shake you up and win more business. In fact, all of my books are available on amazon.com. Be sure to click to like
David Avrin: this podcast subscribe. You'll get notification of all of the all the podcasts as they get released. Click the little bell. Icon, you'll get the notification for that as well. You can learn more about my keynote speaking, and my consulting@davidavrin.com big thanks to Don Fox for being on the why customers leave podcasts. Remember, Leave a comment subscribe.
I'm, David Avrin, be good.