james dodkins interview - how to handle “machine customers” of the future
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So what is the future of customer experience? Well, you might be surprised to learn that the future involves what many are calling "machine customers". It's the machine or technology that schedules your appointments or buys what you need and interacts with the world for you. Well, my guest today is going to introduce you to the future of CX. James Dotkins is a customer Experience Rock Star. We're going to talk about a future that's not so far away, and one that will change everything.
David Avrin: welcome to the why customers leave Podcast I'm. David Avrin, and you know we talk about. Certainly white customers lead, but we're gonna talk about as we do every week. What does customer experience look like today? What do people like? What are they not like? And what do we as business owners, entrepreneurs and others need to do to future proof our businesses.
David Avrin: And one of the best things about this is I get to talk to experts who help me understand, Help all of us understand what's coming down the pike. What's next?
David Avrin: And today is actually really really interesting, because I I I think we've all seen glimpses of this. But we're going to get a better sense of what it really looks like as it plays out over the next 1020, 30 years quick introduction. First.
David Avrin: James Dodd continues to be an actual real life, legitimate, award-winning rock star he played guitar in a heavy metal band released to albums and torped stages all around the world. But today James is a Cx evangelist
David Avrin: at Pegas systems, where he researches the mindset principles and philosophies of companies that deliver Rock Star customer experiences. He shares the strategies through transformative training, engaging videos, inspiring keynote talks, he's got books out. He's got videos everywhere and he's a good friend. We have a a great community of customer experience, professionals around the world. James.
David Avrin: Welcome to the podcast!
James Dodkins: Thank you so much for having me. What an introduction! I couldn't have written it better myself. Yeah, I was gonna say it was. It was quite, quite well written actually it about 3 pages long. It just did a a a small synopsis of all of that, and you'll hear the the accent, James, where you coming to us from today
James Dodkins: from the Uk from Birmingham, which is the central bit of England. So whenever anyone hears that you from England, who isn't from England, they're like, oh, do you live in London. No, most of England doesn't live in London. There's a middle bit Birmingham, best known for Peaky blinders and Black Sabbath.
David Avrin: Yes, both I I've been there, and I I had a great opportunity of of speaking there. I I One of the things that really stuck out to me which probably nobody will talk about is, you have the most ginormous rabbits I have ever seen in my life. I spoke at some estate, and I looked outside, and was something out of
David Avrin: Alice in Wonderland, and I don't think we have those in the States. We have little little bunnies, and then really cruel people have rabbits foot that they have for good luck. Get away. I'm. Way off the subject. Let's talk about Where, Where are you in the Us?
I am. I am right in the center of the Us. I'm. In, or just a little bit left of center. I am in Denver, Colorado.
James Dodkins: What so weirdly the the story I was about to tell you was about rabbits in Denver, because.
James Dodkins: like they were like there's loads of them on the roads, and there's loads of dead ones on the roads, and they've never seen so many dead rabbits in my life
David Avrin: far. But but we don't understand lorries. So all right. We're way off the subject. So so here's one of the one of the the things that I find really fascinating is, as I talk to colleagues around the world and clients and others as well is, there's sort of a different take on what's coming and where.
David Avrin: But of course we're global now. And so, as we look at sort of the progression. And much of what I talk about is some of those points of friction. Some of those frustrations.
David Avrin: technology and organizations are deploying technology and adopting technology that allow us to do more than we've ever done before. Talk to us about this this concept of machine customers put it in context for us.
James Dodkins: Yeah. So like machine customers is.
James Dodkins: It's a really exciting topic for me, because I honestly think it's one of like the only new things in customer experience to happening quite a long time. A lot of the stuff we talk about in customer experience. It's it's the same stuff, but spoken about in different ways, which is very useful. But this is a this is a new thing. This is something that could spawn its own industry, its own profession.
James Dodkins: And
James Dodkins: imagine your digital assistant whether it to be on your phone or a little thing on the side. And you ask it to do a thing you say, hey, Digital Assistant, set an alarm for me. That's that's standard nowadays. But imagine, if you could say, hey, digital assistant.
James Dodkins: order me some guitar strings.
James Dodkins: and then that digital assistant goes away. Scouts the Internet for the absolute, best guitar strings possible with the type of guitar you play based on the sort of music you like to play, and then finds the store that's got the best price versus quickest Delivery knows your specific
James Dodkins: preferences when it comes to that, and then orders them for you. It just goes and does it. Now i'm not talking about necessarily asking.
James Dodkins: We can't save the name, because it'll affect everybody. Mine just went off in my office. So I got that we'll we'll call it Digital Assistant. Yeah. So in the Amazon digital assistant. I'm not talking about that one that interacts with itself, which is just basically an extension of its own.
James Dodkins: I'm talking about asking your phone to buy something from the supermarket. I'm talking about asking the Google Digital Assistant to book a restaurant for you. Now, there is actually examples of that. So you can find the video online there is. It's how crazy is that it's crazy?
James Dodkins: Someone asked the digital assistant book. Me a table at my favorite restaurant at Friday, 5 Pm. And the digital assistant goes away, and not only does it book it, it's Spoofs a voice, so it acts like a real person. Go and find the video. It's really good
David Avrin: and even include some of the that make it sound. But the the idea is twofold right. So on one end it's. It's about to it's about being effective being able to complete the task. But to to present in such a way as it is.
David Avrin: and fooling is probably the wrong word. But making the person on the other end believe that they are interacting with an actual human being. Correct?
James Dodkins: Yes, and I mean we. We get into the the logistics of it now. But companies are gonna have to figure out how they deal with having interactions with machine customers because
James Dodkins: they they gonna have to.
James Dodkins: If a company realizes that it's interacting with a machine customer. There's really no point having a human on their end, having that, you know, empathetic report building conversation with them because they don't the machine is not going to care. In fact, that's probably going to be annoying to the machine. Who's essentially only going to care about the completion of the the the goal and the efficiency in which they can do it.
James Dodkins: So
James Dodkins: I think what's gonna happen in the future is there's gonna be like 4 main types of interactions between customers and companies. You've got. Go through those and then we'll tackle them, one at a time. Yeah. Okay. So the first one is person to person. This happens all the time. Now this is me me talking to you. I walk into the store, and I say, good morrow. Shopkeep.
James Dodkins: one of your finest apples, please, and they give it to me. The history of their History of commerce. Yes, number 2
James Dodkins: number 2 person to machine, which happens all the time. Now this is where I go on the website to try and find the phone number to call up and it doesn't have a phone number, but it does have a chat. Yeah, and that pops out, of course, is short for robot
James Dodkins: to be quick. Yes.
James Dodkins: yes. So i'm there going high chat, robot. I need to do a thing, and it goes. Sorry I don't understand that I might. Well.
James Dodkins: you said, No, yeah, please rephrase that so that can be either verbal or or digital correct. So that's person to technology, to person, to machine, and then the new ones.
James Dodkins: So these are the new ones that are going to emerge. So this is machine. So, my machine to person that's similar to that Google example where my digital assistant will call up and have a conversation with a person
James Dodkins: to get something done.
James Dodkins: Is that one? And then there's the Holy Grail, which is this is the one that's going to completely redefine every single standard of what good is in customer experience, and that's machine to machine.
James Dodkins: That's where my digital assistant plays nicely with your technology in your company. And I can say, hey, digital assistant.
James Dodkins: update my email address with every single company I've got a contract with and within a split second it goes and does it.
James Dodkins: That is the Holy Grail, and that is going to be the thing that is going to change the face of customer experience forever.
David Avrin: Right? Right? Let's let's take them one at a time. I think we understand one and 2. One is is interaction. We've always had 2, is
David Avrin: it? It's in my case it's a it's a big frustration. We're dealing with. Chat bots, but there it AI! It's getting better. It's getting smarter it's getting more intuitive, I think the early days with just an electronic FAQ
David Avrin: right right right? And now it's at least responsive in the way. I'm: just the one who who I I don't know what is about me. I I rarely have a question that's frequently asked, so i'm the person that's like real person, real person.
or or some of the set for representative right. But let's go to number 2 before we go to our number 3, so number 2. The whole idea of the machine customer.
David Avrin: If we are having a conversation, or if our our digitalist system, or whatever is making that appointment, and it's already happening. It's going to be much more widespread. A couple of things. First of all.
David Avrin: do organizations have to prepare for interactions when they recognize that it is a machine. That is the technology. So instead of us talking to a chat BoT, it's the Chat BoT talking to us.
David Avrin: and the example that we've got online is very much about trying to mimic, so they can't tell.
David Avrin: But what do organizations need to do to prepare when they can tell?
James Dodkins: So it's it's going to be a difficult one, because I think there's probably going to be one of 2 ways in which organizations
James Dodkins: sort of react to this
James Dodkins: some.
James Dodkins: They're all going to be working to try and discover and identify when a machine customer is interacting with them.
James Dodkins: But then how they deal with it is going to be different. So one of them will be like.
James Dodkins: Cut it off. We don't want to deal with machine customers. Okay, they'll. They'll class it as oh, it's it's a but interact. We don't want it. And then the other ones we'll have to, you know. Be like, okay, let's root it down the path that we do deal with machine customers
James Dodkins: with. And I think the companies that try and deflect to machine customers they're gonna be the ones that lose in the end. You're gonna lose big yeah, because when I say.
James Dodkins: hey, digital assistant changed my email address with everything single company I've got an account with, and it comes back and says, i've done it apart from Telco Corp, who don't allow machine customer interactions. When my contracts up i'm going to be like.
James Dodkins: Hey, digital assist. Find me a replacement for Telco Corps, Someone who does a lot of machine customer interactions because it's it's just going to be. Imagine because it's going to reset. What convenience is it's going to reset what speed and ease is, and when there's a company that won't allow it. Essentially they are signing their own death warrant. Now, of course, that's not going to happen tomorrow. That's not an immediate thing, but to prepare, and it's a pre. It's a progression.
James Dodkins: and but to prepare for it I mean one of the first things companies can do is really start to map out all of the scenarios in which in the future a machine customer might interact with them.
James Dodkins: And so for for traditional companies it's going to be easier for smaller companies. I don't. You've probably got a longer tail on this. I think it's going to be more expected of of bigger companies. So you get these scenarios. These are all the ways in the future that machine customers might interact with us.
James Dodkins: and then you have to start grading them, which are the ones that are likely going to happen. The first like this series.
James Dodkins: and then which are the ones that are gonna have the biggest impact. And then you can start to prioritize where you place your focus. I think there's probably going to be whole industries that pop up to help the facilitation of machine customer interactions where
James Dodkins: it's the the As I said the Holy Grail is going to be when my machine my technology plays nicely with your technology to facilitate that instantaneous interaction. And I think that I don't know what that is yet, but I know that that.
David Avrin: But but let's but we can talk about that. But let's go back for a second, because I want to play Devil's advocate. My job also is to the voice of the audience, and there are people sitting back and going. You gotta be freak and kidding me.
David Avrin: You gotta be pretty and kid to me. So what happens when somebody when the machine calls and they say, yeah, we don't have anything available or hang on 1 s. I can't hear you or somebody's got a really thick foreign accent that's harder to get in touch with, where somebody starts spouting gibberish.
David Avrin: and then all of a sudden everything falls off the rails. Of course
David Avrin: there's so many minds that saying, here's Here's immediately 27 things that can go wrong with that and screw it up. What's the response?
James Dodkins: Yeah.
James Dodkins: that's my response. I mean it's it's not. It's not wrong. There are there are loads of hurdles to overcome with this and a I is getting very good now at holding
James Dodkins: human like conversations and understanding the nuance and response of human conversation. So the the the uns and the I don't know. Wait there, that'll all be covered
James Dodkins: There's this kind of 3 waves of machine customers that's going to come in. This is from Gartner. So this is a go on a prediction, not mine, but and to clarify you're not necessarily advocating You're you're the messenger.
David Avrin: right. I'm saying, here's what I mean to help. Organizations recognize what's coming so we can prepare and take advantage of the schedule Shouldn't. I'm just saying
James Dodkins: it's probably coming. So you do with this information what you will. But Gartner said, there's going to be 3 waves of this. So right now we do have a machine customers, but they are bound
David Avrin: so they will only do what it is that they are asked to do, and nothing more, nothing but sometimes less, because they're not all great, but nothing more right. And so to to clarify. If we tell it to do a task, it does a task. If we ask my digital assistant on my desk to make an appointment will make an appointment, but they won't, necessarily predict. I, that said I do get suggestions. I was getting ready to get on this call, and my phone popped up. It said, You are getting ready for this thing. Do you want to go on?
David Avrin: Do not disturb
James Dodkins: right. So it's anticipating something. So maybe that's just a little bit of a of a maybe that that can be number one. Is it over. So to put it into perspective, the the dinner reservation.
James Dodkins: So it bound by what we tell it to do. The the machine customer calls up it, says, i'd like to book a table for 5 Pm. The person on the other end of the line. Sorry we don't have one for 5 Pm. But we do have one at 5. 20
David Avrin: pause for one moment.
David Avrin: It's frozen
David Avrin: of
David Avrin: the next wave is adaptable. Hang on 1 s because it's it's frozen, or you've been frozen. Sorry. There we go. You're back alright. I'm gonna have your s this the part? Just cut this, and we're gonna we're gonna pick it right back up of staying.
David Avrin: Just go back to saying so. Number one.
David Avrin: Here's what happens so and so reaches out. Just go back to Number One because we're all back. But it it was frozen for about a 60 s. There, go ahead.
James Dodkins: So so the first wave is bound.
James Dodkins: and to use the restaurant analogy that i'll use all the way through this. Let's say the digital assistant calls up and says i'd like to book a table at 5 Pm. The person on the other end of the line says, Sorry we don't have one at 5. Pm. But we do have one at 5 20. Would you like that because there is no autonomy to this digital assistant right now, it will say no.
James Dodkins: and it will close out the call, and it will let me know that there is no there there isn't a table available
James Dodkins: Now the next wave is adaptable. So this is where I say, book me a table at 5 Pm. It calls up, they say. Sorry we don't have a table at 5 Pm. But we do have one of 5 20. The digital assistant then looks at my calendar and goes.
James Dodkins: I think he can probably do that. Yes, let's take it. Thank you very much. Then it'll let me know they didn't have one at 5, but they did have one at 5 20. It looks like you can do it.
James Dodkins: Do you want me to cancel it, or are you happy to keep it, and i'll say no, that's fine, thank you.
James Dodkins: And then it's done. But then this third wave.
James Dodkins: and this is the crazy one. This is autonomous.
James Dodkins: Now this isn't going to be until like 2036 is when they're predicting so we got. We got a bit of time to prepare, but this is where the digital assistant
James Dodkins: looks into. My calendar.
James Dodkins: Kind of notice is, I haven't taken my wife out to dinner for 2 weeks, automatically phones up automatically books the table, and just pings me to say, by the way, you haven't taken your wi-fi for 2 weeks
James Dodkins: I have booked you a table at your favorite restaurant 5, 20 Pm. On Friday. Enjoy. Do you want to keep it or not? And if I don't want to keep it, I'll just say no, and it will, but but that's the difference. That and there the way right now. It only does exactly what we ask it to do, but in the future. It's gonna.
James Dodkins: you know, Get more autonomy to achieve the the goals that we we are trying to achieve on our behalf.
David Avrin: All right, so let's talk about Number 3, which was number 3 from your your 4, which is the machine to machine.
James Dodkins: That's number 4
David Avrin: or number 4. Sorry that's correct. That's that's number 4. Right? Number 3 was was us, or the machine talking to to real people. Reporter sending us Number 4 is machine to machine.
David Avrin: I would assume that that's driven, or will be driven in large part by the Internet of things. IoT for those who who see that term it's a chip in everything. It's the chip in your furnace, in your refrigerator that knows when you're out of something in your car that says it's time to replace the tires
David Avrin: there. It seems almost that there's a melding of 3 and 4 in that it's set up to say when something is going bad, you have the freedom to go ahead and order a replacement.
David Avrin: But Number 4 is the pure machine to machine.
David Avrin: Our system will talk to their system, but it will be triggered by specific events. Specific criteria. Is that how you see it?
James Dodkins: Yes, that that will be the case. It's. I don't think anything will. I mean, who knows. Actually, maybe in the future we'll get so used to it that when we buy
James Dodkins: items like a fridge or a washing machine or a car, we don't even necessarily have to agree for them to do that stuff, because we're just so used to. It just happens it is the norm. Maybe that will be the case. I don't know. I don't think that's probably quite scary, but so is all of the the future right now. But
James Dodkins: the the machine to machine
James Dodkins: interaction is is really going to be the thing that's the big game changer, because
James Dodkins: so when I join Pegas systems
James Dodkins: I had a buddy called Andy muttered to Andy, and every time he ever did a demo he demoed address change so change of address.
James Dodkins: and literally I was like.
James Dodkins: Oh, God, this is boring. Why are you choosing such a boring thing to to Demo, to people?
James Dodkins: And then I moved House.
James Dodkins: and and the address change became the bane of my existence for months
James Dodkins: in my head, because i'm not a i'm not a techie guy. Right? That's that's not me in my head. I'm like right changing my address with the company. That's just changing a string of letters and numbers to a different string of letters and numbers. That's all that is. But
James Dodkins: in practicality in real life that there's a lot more to it than that. There's legacy systems as acquisitions where they're trying to put systems together from like 15 different companies. Maybe you've got one part of a policy with one bit of the company, one with a different division, and they've got all this stuff trying to do. And
James Dodkins: so I I started to realize after that at the that is a really good thing to show people, because it's such a simple thing. That's actually a bloody nightmare to get.
James Dodkins: If if I can tell my detail. Assistant, hey, change my address with every company I've got an account with.
James Dodkins: and rather than having to call up every single one and spoof a thing saying, Hi! My name is James Dodkins.
James Dodkins: It will just because the Mission, because my technology will play nicely with their technologies instantly. It'll do that. And that is a massive win-win situation. Because that's a win for me because it just gets done in an instant to win for the company because they're going to save money, and they're going to save man, person power. Power.
James Dodkins: Yeah, we can. I do that, but that they they gonna save money. They're gonna save hours. And the great thing about this is it's gonna to free up time for agents
James Dodkins: to really spend
James Dodkins: powerful, immersive, emotional time with customers that need the more complex things happen because the thing i'm not. I don't see a world where this is going to take over everything in in my mind. There's 2 types of experience, and this is the way I look at it.
James Dodkins: There's emotional experience in this transactional experience, this there's things where I just need to get something done. And there's things that I need a little bit more help with transactional stuff. Change my address. Okay, that's one thing
James Dodkins: claiming on a life insurance policy.
James Dodkins: Maybe that shouldn't be automated. My, I don't think they should be likely nuanced in the scenario that requires human intervention, right?
James Dodkins: But again, there's more to that change of address, because there's been a death in the family that maybe you know what I mean. They now a lot of nuance. I don't know whether machines will ever be able to understand fully, and I think.
David Avrin: But let me let me challenge that for a second, because here's here's where I think there there is a a disconnect, and probably made very visible recently by a frontier airlines here in America who made an announcement. They will no longer offer live voice, support at all
David Avrin: like none. And you think about what scenarios are the most likely to encounter some disruption, some alteration that requires human intervention of all industries it for me. It's mind boggling.
David Avrin: But
David Avrin: when you say I don't, I don't know it'll go that way. I think there's some organizations. Think that they can. I spoke at a customer experience conference in in Bogota, Columbia for them customer experience was about headsets, and the way they define it is is, how do we? How fast can we get them off the call? How fast can we do
David Avrin: get them on, move them on their way as opposed to how, how can we best serve them? How can we best serve them? We're satisfied them so as long as there is an off ramp.
David Avrin: I I think that the one universal is we both speak, and we work with clients. Is that frustration of the people shouting, You know, real person, real freak in person, representative something.
David Avrin: When you talked about that this frees up organizations to better serve the customers. We're tree option them right. Give them an easy option. Let them give them an opportunity for the cases that really need it the disconnect I see and tell me what you're seeing in the market is organizations that make that transition very, very difficult, if not impossible.
David Avrin: impossible, to find a way to get to a real person, and then the frustration escalates.
James Dodkins: Yeah, I think you are right. So let me rephrase that.
James Dodkins: Not that I don't think it will get to that place. I don't think it should get to that place. I don't think we should get to a place where we.
James Dodkins: if my
James Dodkins: you know my fit bit doesn't detect my heart right for 15 min. It automatically claims on my life insurance policy. I don't think we should. We should get to there. But you. You gotta use that one on stage. That's that's a perfect example. Keep going, I will, I will. But it's it's this this idea of Why are you doing it. And so many times
James Dodkins: companies are using chat, bots and digital assistance, and all this stuff to talk to us, really, because they don't want to talk to us.
James Dodkins: and and then then it's interesting that they were like, oh, we never! We never figured customers, maybe wouldn't want to talk to us, too, with the 2 2 can play at that game. We don't really want to talk to you, too, and you what you thought we would never use those tactics ourselves. You thought that would never be a possibility. But
James Dodkins: you ask a lot of companies, and if they're being honest with you, why are you doing this digital transformation? Why are you moving this way? The answer is to to save money. That's why not? Because it's what's best for the customer? It's because we need to save money.
James Dodkins: I think what's gonna happen in the future is you're gonna ask companies. Why are you doing this change? And they're gonna be like is because customers demanded. Because we don't have a choice. It's because this new world we cannot operate without doing this stuff. And I think, coming back to this whole digital versus human thing that's going to be the the big differentiator.
James Dodkins: the companies that still keep that human element around to deal with the more nuanced, more emotional
James Dodkins: situations that again I with there's there's always going to be some type of customer that will, that the most important thing in any customer company relationship is how much it costs. Okay, you are. No matter how bad you are.
James Dodkins: they will pay the lowest amount possible. If you are a company out there. I mean, there are some. There are some exceptions that I've done pretty well to be in the low customer, but you do need to understand. If you become successful as a company by being the lowest cost option.
James Dodkins: Your customers are never going to be loyal to you. They never were loyal to you. They never will be loyal to you, because they are only loyal to their wallet, and as soon as someone else comes along that can provide that service, even if it's worse, but for less money they will move to them.
James Dodkins: So it's a it's a pretty game to play. Where is if You're in the environment of building a relationship because this is the thing about customer, experience, customer, experience, isn't about experience, and I think that's the thing we get it wrong. It's about relationships.
James Dodkins: You ask, Why? Why are we even delivering experiences? Why are we customer experience professionals? Because we are trying to understand and improve the relationship we have with our customers. That is the end of it. That is the be all and end of it. We need to understand that these relationships they need nurturing, and if you
James Dodkins: try and take the cheap way out and just try and automate everything the type of relationship you build with your customer isn't going to be one that's going to be for long term growth. It's not going to be a valuable one. It's not even going to be a profitable one, maybe in the short term, because you've taken out costs. But in the long term it won't be so. I think it's we
James Dodkins: everyone's going to need to take a little step back and really try and identify what is the type of relationship we want to have with our customer, and then. And but, let me ask you, is it also potentially hierarchical? I mean, for some of the low end, transactional and being efficient with that transaction, is very, very important. Do you see it moving towards
David Avrin: more of a concierge level service for the ones that are really the the the higher end, the ones that are that that
David Avrin: for tell the profit for the organization sort of there's the ranking file. There's the ongoing. We got to be smart transit. Actually, we've got to be efficient and convenient. But but do you see them moving towards? But we will offer a higher end, concierge
James Dodkins: level service, maybe, for a bigger fee for those customers who really need it. Is that sort of the balance that might be coming. Yeah, I think we we say that
James Dodkins: at the moment. Now, anyway, where there's different levels, you can pay for different levels of service.
James Dodkins: and a lot of times we'll go for the lowest one, and then something goes wrong, and we're like God damn it over Showed up. Yeah, there was a and we get there with our with the loyalty programs right with the airlines. I'm. You know i'm the highest level, because I travel, of course, in my in my hotel as well, but for others it's. It's just as we talk about.
David Avrin: You know we're not naive. You know. You and I are both working with organizations, and we're not naive about the cost constraints and the labor challenges they that they that they are facing. But what's your council to them about finding that right balance
James Dodkins: There's I do. That's such a loaded question. There, there's so many facets to the way to answer that question, I think
James Dodkins: cost if you're focusing on cost.
James Dodkins: you're not focusing on the customer. And if you're not focused on that on the customer. You're You're never gonna win
James Dodkins: It's kind of like the
James Dodkins: it's.
James Dodkins: Do you play golf
James Dodkins: occasionally? Not Well, but I I enjoy it. Yeah, I don't play golf very well at all
James Dodkins: when I drive the the the first hit of the ball for people that that aren't Gulf aficionado is like me, so that that first one off the T.
James Dodkins: I've got this. We I think it's a slice. It goes off to the right. I think that's a slice right. It goes off to the right.
James Dodkins: And rather than just being a sensible person and getting lessons to fix that, all I do is. I just AIM over there
James Dodkins: all right, so I am over there
James Dodkins: to make sure the ball goes that way where I really want it to go.
James Dodkins: Now I have to believe, with every single fiber of my being that that random tree over there is the thing I need to hit, or it won't slice properly to go where I actually want it to go.
James Dodkins: That's that's the mindset. We need to this. I'm going somewhere with this. I promise you that that's the mindset we need to take in customer experience so many times we see and and in business in general, not just customer experience, but in business.
James Dodkins: in business we see the money as the goal.
James Dodkins: and I think we need to redefine that and understand the money isn't the goal. The money is the reward.
James Dodkins: The goal should be delivering that amazing customer experience and building that customer relationship. You do that right. The reward will be the money if you focus on the money as the reward you're always going to do things that are not in the customer's best interest that actually in the end negatively affect that
David Avrin: all right. But but let's go back to the subject that we're talking about, which is this whole machine to human machine, to machine communication, which for many is a a major point of friction or frustration. How do how do organizations, and how to you as a counselor to organizations?
David Avrin: How do you reconcile that? Because the people who are advocates for this technology are this is going to make our experience better. And then the customers are going. This is making it worse.
David Avrin: What? What's the future? How do you reconcile the 2?
James Dodkins: Yeah, I mean, there are. There's probably going to be lots of scandals and stories that we're going to tell in the future of companies that've got this wrong security issues going to be a massive thing. There's probably going to be some company that does a massive security breach? Because I mean that's another thing we need to think of as well like. If, if if I choose a particular digital assistant to be the one I asked to do stuff. It's going to need to hold
James Dodkins: every single bit of information I've got with every single account I've got, and it's going to need to know all My, you know my card details. It's going to be so much personal information involved in that that that's gonna
James Dodkins: need to be, and there's gonna be people that go. I would never use that. That sounds scary.
James Dodkins: My answer to you is
James Dodkins: there? You will, because you kind of already do, because we constantly give up
James Dodkins: like add data protection for convenience every single day. I think the company best suited for this right is probably Google, because, like you think about Google Chrome, it already knows all your passwords. It's already got all the V cards saved. It's it's in a really good position to just use that stuff in a different way. I've gone off track. What was the original question?
David Avrin: Well, I mean, we're we're talking about. How do we reconcile? We talk about the ultimately it's about providing a great customer experience and building a relationship. There are those who would argue that technology actually gets in the way of the relationship.
James Dodkins: Sometimes, right? It's the the thing is it's not technology. Technology is just a tool. It's the use of it. Technology. It's just today's version of pen and paper. That's all it is. It's just a very fancy version of pen and paper, but it's become so specialized in organizations
James Dodkins: that you've got. You know, people in like special rooms wearing lab coats for some reason, and they the techy people, and like you, can. You'd never get back in the day like a project at work you'd be like oh, this is really cool. I'd love to get involved, and someone goes. Oh.
James Dodkins: don't know that, David. We are using some pretty advanced pen and paper here. I don't know about anything. It's it just it wouldn't happen that way, but and then you can in the the real world where customers use it. If you you see tiny little babies using ipads, you see a 105 year old grandads
James Dodkins: using ipads as well that technology should and could be
James Dodkins: super easy to use.
James Dodkins: But the technology is what it is. It's just all it's just a tool. It's just a thing. It's the application of it. Some companies are gonna do it exceedingly well, and they're going to set the bar. Other companies are going to do really badly, but it's it's I don't I like cake, but if every time I got a piece of cake I just rammed it into my eyeball soon. I'm going to be like, you know what I don't like cake, and someone will come along and go change it's not cake. You don't like you just using it wrong. Use it this way. I'll lead the cake, and i'll go. This is a revolution. It's it's an odd analogy. So we've got goal from
David Avrin: it's. It's it's a it's a great analogy, because I think people hear about it, and they think futuristic. They think the terminator. You know it's a kind of you know, and and they're making those decisions. But I also see in your examples of 1, 2, 3, and 4 at the beginning between 3 and 4 as a transition period, and that transition period is before the machine orders something from another machine. It'll ask your permission to do so
David Avrin: I see you're out of whatever should I order Blank? And there we're already seeing hints of that through Amazon and through Google. That's suggestive based on what you've done before. People are freaking out there always knows what I bought. Yeah, and that's why you don't get ads for a feminine hygiene products, because it has a better sense of what you're likely to buy, so
David Avrin: I have no problem with it. As long as there's an off ramp
David Avrin: to a person. If you need it. And so it's it. It it's an exciting shift. It's gonna be really interesting to see where things go because it affects our business affects everybody's business, but it'll also affect it differently, because smaller businesses, the florist, the pizza shop, and others
David Avrin: may not have the capacity to do so, but they do interact with Uber and Uber eats and lyft and postmates and things like that. So it's an initial thing short of time. Quick, quick speed round that we like to do at the end here. So it's just brief. And so. And if you think I have no idea, just say it.
David Avrin: We hear a lot of predictions about the future. What prediction
David Avrin: the Futurist and others? What do you think is wrong?
James Dodkins: This I don't know. It depends how much time we've got, because I I actually think sustainability is going to be a massive thing. I think customers are going to start getting annoyed with companies
James Dodkins: using sustainability right bear with me. I've got they.
James Dodkins: It's my, it's my show. We can go as long as we want cool, Good. It's it's green washing. Yeah, though, when a company basically does nothing to help the environment, but then goes for everything that you buy, we'll plant a tree
James Dodkins: and and customers to get, especially now with the cost of living crisis and inflation, because somebody's going. Could you not just charge me a little bit less rather than plant a bloody tree? Just charge me less.
whereas there's companies out there that are actually doing very sensible things that are increasing their efficiency, lowering, lowering their carbon footprints and then passing that cost onto the customer. So I think
James Dodkins: in the future, in the probably very near future customers. There's going to be a bit of a backlash and like, stop doing this performative stuff, and actually do some real stuff that helps the world and helps me pay you less
David Avrin: right because the Pr. From told him to do so. What do you think right now? Post pandemic is the biggest risk to business owners, entrepreneurs, organizations. What's their biggest risk right now?
James Dodkins: I either another pandemic or to not inflation. I mean, that's it's killing everyone right now. Absolutely. What do you think
David Avrin: I kind of wrote this down because I was thinking about this, that that there's some people kind of on the inside, or they're getting into. What do you think is going to be? The biggest
David Avrin: innovation change shift. That's gonna surprise people
David Avrin: in the next 5, 10 years.
James Dodkins: probably just how much AI is going to evolve, and how quickly and what it's going to be capable of doing. I think it's going to blow everyone's minds.
David Avrin: What's your biggest frustration in working with businesses. What causes you
David Avrin: to leave
David Avrin: a businesses Say, screw this i'm gone.
David Avrin: What's that? One thing that really gets your craw?
James Dodkins: Oh, it is there. Is there a one thing, or is it a tangled multitude you know web of.
James Dodkins: For me it's
James Dodkins: a lack of trust.
James Dodkins: That's the biggest thing for me is I can. I can deal with mistakes. I understand that they happen. It's like lack of transparency, and if I, as soon as I lose trust in the company, and that for me that i'm going to go into it again. Sorry. But there's 2 elements, 2 elements of trust there's do I trust that they mean well, and do I trust they can do well like. Do they.
James Dodkins: you know, want the best for me? Are they actually trying to help me? And can they actually do the thing they say they're gonna do. Are they actually competent? And I think you need to tick both boxes to have total trust in a company
James Dodkins: Once those 2 are gone.
James Dodkins: I'm out because I my bank, for example, do I think they've got my best interest at heart? No.
James Dodkins: Do I think they're competent and are going to do the things I say they do. Yes, I'm going to stay with them because they're at least going to do that. But when I meet a company that I don't think is gonna necessarily do the best by me, and isn't even capable of doing it very well. That's when i'm gone. So when trust is gone.
James Dodkins: James is gone.
David Avrin: Got it? One last question: what are you optimistic about
James Dodkins: humans in general? I think, no matter how prevalent AI gets and machines get and technology gets. I still think humans are gonna be
James Dodkins: the thing that makes the difference in everything
David Avrin: outstanding what a great treat we're friends offline. But a great opportunity to talk about sort of how.
David Avrin: what's new, and this whole idea of machine customers. I think it's fascinating. I think people as they those who are watching this or those who are listening will will begin to see signs.
David Avrin: Oh, yeah, that's what he was talking about. It makes a lot of sense to people on. Get in touch with you, and you work in the Uk. And what you do globally as well. How do people get in touch with you.
David Avrin: Linkedin is a good, but if you want to drop me an email, it's jd@mega.com if you want to connect with me on Linkedin. I post loads of videos and interesting content about this stuff. It's James Doddkins. I'm like one of the there's not very many of us. You'll find me there. There's 2 David Evans in the world, and and I actually think, madam, this whole other story for another time. James, thanks for being with us hang on because you and I will talk on the other side. Just want to remind everybody that you can pick up a copy of my new book, so I grab it here. It's called the Morning Huddle. Powerful customer experience
David Avrin: presentations to wake you up and shake you up and win more business. Be sure to click to like this podcast subscribe. Hit the little bell. So you get a notifications of new episodes, but it's really important to to leave a comment. As well. Tell us what you think about this, what we can be doing differently as well. You can learn more about my speaking and my consulting@davidavrin.com.
David Avrin: That's it. Thanks for tuning in. This is why customers leave podcasts big thanks to James Dawkins. I'm. David aver be good