Arlen Meyers, MD, MBA interview - Redefining the patient experience
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Everyone in business serves an audience. Some call them customers, others might call them clients, or guests, or associates, or constituents. In health care, we call them patients, of course. But we are all one of those consumers on the buying side of the equation. Well, my guest today is here to talk about the ways that we access health care today and how a new generation of physician entrepreneurs is redefining patient engagement in the patient experience. I'm talking with Dr. Arlen Myers, President and CEO, of the Society of Physician entrepreneurs.
David Avrin: thanks, and welcome again to the why customers leave Podcasts. A great opportunity for me to talk about how we engage as consumers as business owners, entrepreneurs and different aspects of our life within different realms. As I said in the Introduction, you know, sometimes we are the provider, and sometimes we're the consumer.
David Avrin: and it, and it takes so many different forms. I think one of the most significant changes. Post Covid is what's happened to health care, and what a lot of people Don't realize is that health, care
David Avrin: and begun many of those changes far before that I I I look back in my career in the early part in my twenties. I worked in health care for several years. I was Pr. Director at Children's Hospital. I worked at the Denver City Health Department, and I lobbied at our State Legislature for for health issues back. Then they were talking about telemedicine.
David Avrin: It's sort of in the way of how do you approach and serve rural areas. How can somebody, maybe, on the other side of the planet with a computer and robotic arms to surgery? We think about how much has changed since then, and of course
David Avrin: accelerated in many ways because of Covid. Well.
David Avrin: my guest today, Dr. Arlen Myers, who is a colleague who I've known for for over 30 years
David Avrin: has has been that person who has has been everything on the from the clinical side to the teaching at the medical side. And now on the entrepreneurial side, let me give a quick do his quick introduction, so I can do this justice, and then we'll say, Hi! Dr. Myers is Professor Emeritus of Auto, Larryology and Dentistry and Engineering at the University of Colorado School of Medicine, and the Colorado School of Public Health, and he's President and CEO of the Society of Physician Entrepreneurs. He helps people
David Avrin: get their biomedical ideas to patients by teaching, working and working with entrepreneurs and leading a global, not for profit, biomedical and clinical innovation and entrepreneur network. That is a a a mouthful. Dr. Myers. Good morning.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: Good morning, thanks for having me. Absolutely. You know I I would love to talk about because we look in different realms, and of course i'm on that business side of saying, how can organizations, businesses, and all these different realms
David Avrin: provide a better experience.
David Avrin: But you come from a really unique perspective where you really understand what patient engagement looks like, and how that might differentiate from experience. Tell us a little bit about your your your background and and your perspective on on how we're serving, and how we're accessing care today.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: Sure. So the short version, as you mentioned is my first career was as an academic. Your nose and throne search
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: at the University of Colorado. I did that for many, many years, and then I
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: pivot to change my sort of career transition
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: to what I would call an accidental entrepreneur. My, my a team that I was part of
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: invented a gadget that optically detects cancer in the mouth.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: and that led down a road where I was clueless. I had no idea what to do with this idea. No one was helping me. I didn't have education. I didn't have any skills any of that.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: so that led to my next idea or transition as well.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: I guess we're gonna need to teach people how to do this. So that's how I wound up now doing what i'm doing, which is educating, consulting, and running the society of physician entrepreneurs.
David Avrin: So talk to us about
David Avrin: throughout your experience, and you've seen change after change, but not just on the clinical side, not just the advancements in terms of of diagnostic capabilities, but in terms of how we access care, and how, on the care side care is provided. Talk to us about some of those milestones.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: Right? So my view is that we're presently experiencing what I call sick care for.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: So, first of all, we don't have a health care system. We have a dysfunctional.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: a a a sick care system of systems in the United States.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: We spent now 4.3 trillion more than any country in the world.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: We arguably get the least
value from outcomes of any industrialized country.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: and it's just continuing to get bigger and bigger and bigger.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: We're costing all kinds of problems.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: So what has happened over the brief history, You know, this is like the Guido Sergei 5 min university. So here's where's the 5 min University on the history of health care in the United States?
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: So it starts off with basically private practice, people running around in buggies getting trick paid with chickens and that kind of thing
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: that then morphed into hospital based integrated delivery networks, the social transition of care that was
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: basically described by Paul Star and about the social transformation of American medicine in the seventies.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: then, that evolved into corporate care.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: So now we see all sorts of corporate consolidations and corporations for-profit corporations running systems.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: And that's the third evolution. And now I think we're in the account room of what I call sick care of 4, which is retail here.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: So you see, Cvs: you see Google, Uc. App. You see everybody under the sun that's running a retail enterprise, including what I call Amazon, because Amazon Prime is now all over the place in terms of sick care, delivery.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: So we're in a realm of retail set care.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: and how we and that creates a different mindset.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: So I think, in terms of patient engagement.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: how you engage, and the reason you engage the end, user however, you define them.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: has a big impact, and it basically determines budgets, processes, impact results, engagement, etc., etc.
David Avrin: But let me ask you a question. I mean, let's talk about the differences between sort of patient engagement and patient experience. I read an article that you wrote 8 years ago, where you were talking about this specifically, that on the patient engagement side the importance of that that ultimate goal of of positive clinical outcomes. How do we empower the individual as opposed to an organizational responsibility? The individual on the provider side the individual and the patient side, and working collaboratively and educating them to
David Avrin: create a great outcome. The experience is something different. Right? That's how do we, as consumers access the system?
David Avrin: Are you finding those 2 goals at odds
David Avrin: in that 4. Are you finding a a stress in the system where providers are are pressured in terms of time harder and harder to get access, because there's a cost involved.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: Yes. So yeah. So here's the view.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: First of all, I think that that the objectives of of retail medicine, for example, when you measure engagement.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: if you're an e-commerce marketer.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: you're measuring engagement by the number of clicks and the click throughs, and the dwell time and all these other social media metrics.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: If you're measuring engagement and sick care.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: it's really not just about as you inferred. Education. Education does not change behavior.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: So the importance of engagement, and incidentally, this applies to doctors as well.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: The Holy Grail is to change Dr. Inpatient behavior.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: because patients and doctors aren't doing the right thing now.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: In many, many instances.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: in the case of doctors they're doing things they shouldn't do. They're not doing things they should do, and the same applies for patients.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: So if you take, for example.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: the Us. Preventive task force outlines, maybe 5 or 6 things every American should do to stay well.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: Diet, exercise relaxation, seat, belt, stone on and on.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: The number of people who actually do that is less than 10%.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: So we have a long way to go to change patient and doctor behavior.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: and how you get there has to work through a series of interventions. It starts with education, which, in my opinion, is the least important part
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: of the ultimate engagement outcome that is changing behavior.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: Education, then, results in experience. In other words.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: how do I feel about how you're quote, telling me or selling me on what I need to do. And this applies to vaccination compliance. It applies to COVID-19. It's any public health initiative.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: So it starts with education. It goes to experience, and that leads to engagement. In other words, am I now beginning to understand and adopt awareness, attention, decision, action.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: Am I beginning to think? Gee! Maybe I need to change what I'm doing?
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: And then the final E and I call this the Fouries is enablement. How do you enable a person to change their behavior once they've decided they want to do it?
David Avrin: Okay. But here's a challenge, or you tell me I'm. I'm not gonna put this on you. I'm gonna let you. I i'm interested in your perspective.
David Avrin: We are in a culture right now of of silver bullets.
David Avrin: We're looking for shortcuts for everything. You watch the infomercials. You can rock rock, rock, the pounds away. You can be on the chocolate pudding diet, but it is it's manifesting in almost every purchase decision that we're making, whether it's food or services, and others as well. When you talk about sick here, which I, I think, is very much the challenge. People come in when there's a problem
David Avrin: right? They come in because they search something up on Google. Fix this problem as opposed to making those decisions. And too often, because we are later in life, we're wishing that we did. How our doctors how is is medicine with the big M.
David Avrin: How is the industry
David Avrin: approaching? I mean that this universal wisdom, in terms of what takes for us to we've known this for a long time to get healthy.
David Avrin: But are you challenged now? Our Our health care providers challenge by people wanting a quick solution, wanting the bill wanting the the easy answer, and not willing to do the hard work.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: So the short answer is, Yes, but you're asking the wrong person in other words, and the fact that you use the term provider is a reflection of
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: viewing patience as customers, in my opinion.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: So what you really should be asking is in a highly regulated industry
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: that has fought a 100 years war on sick care reform that is universal coverage and payment.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: It goes back to the progressive era, and in Teddy Roosevelt.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: and it's a very good book actually called the 100 Years War on Sick Care Policy, which i'd suggest. But the short version is, we haven't gotten there yet.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: And the problem is that
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: you know the change in the system and what will ultimately drive behavior change
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: is not something a doctor talks to a patient about in the examining room.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: It happens in hearing rooms in Congress.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: In other words.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: you have to change the rules.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: to change sick care to health care. It starts with changing the rules
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: because rules that is
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: particularly reimbursement, coverage, insurance
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: incentives to do the right thing. All that stuff regulation.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: It starts in the hearing.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: and and ultimately results in legislation.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: The legislation then creates ecosystems, ecosystems create business models and business models drive compliance and incentives.
David Avrin: So it has to start, in my opinion, with rules change.
David Avrin: We got one party controlling one house, another one controlling the other in the Presidency, and neither of them will allow each other to pass anything.
David Avrin: And does it require a measure of
David Avrin: collaboration, a greater measure of collaboration to even seeing that? And it? Yes, so the short answer is.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: Is it polyannish? No. Does it take a long time to create change at this level? Of course it's taken a 100 years to get to where we are now, and oh, and oh, by the way, it takes on average, about 17 years
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: for a health care discovery to ultimately become the standard of care.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: So this is not a short-term fix. You have to take the long view
David Avrin: that doesn't mean you don't do it. And Where are we in the process, or the Are the Are the forces in place
David Avrin: to advocate, to be able to quantify the benefit and the the dangers of of inaction are those? Yes, you call so. For example.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: the latest poll indicated that, roughly, 55% of Americans were dissatisfied with the sick care system, Every person listening to this podcast, I guess, has had a horrible experience with the sick care system, or has a relative who has.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: I mean it's it's just.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: It's pervasive Number number 2, but the numbers favoring now i'm not.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: I'm not an advocate for
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: or at the center, as far as universal coverage do. I think that's a good idea, maybe depends on you know the those in the details, but
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: the best percent, the the vast majority of Americans now favor what they perceive to be single-payer. In other words, government covered care. It's an option right?
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: We're seeing states trying to do this. Some have been successful. Some have been on a successful like Colorado.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: And so more and more we're beginning to see, and as people increasingly go bankrupt
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: from medical bills, which is the the number one cause of the
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: so I think.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: and and ultimately people are fed up at some point
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: with the political gridlock. They just want folks to fix things. So I I think eventually
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: we'll get there.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: whether I live to see it. Who knows? But I do think we're gonna get there, and that's really one of the reasons we created. The society of physician entrepreneurs was to empower people to change the system through the deployment of innovation and entrepreneurs.
David Avrin: and to make a good living, bringing those products to market which is the
David Avrin: subjected to the reality that we have today. We can certainly be the advocates for the kinds of change realists in terms of what it's going to take to make that happen. But I I like when you talked about sort of we shifting in sort of the retail, the retailization of of health care at least
David Avrin: the services provided. I'll give you an example. An hour and a half ago I had to go. Do a quick blood draw my physician, who I actually am working with, out of out of plan for for something separate, said, Go, do a blood draw, and I went to a a, a a lab place, and
David Avrin: there's a single kiosk, and people are struggling to get their information, and i'm ninth in line, thinking I've got to get back for this podcast.
David Avrin: and there are 4 people at the front desk who would and could not help or or could not help anybody, we'd ask, Can you? Can you check some people? You got to go through the kiosk
David Avrin: right? So here's a separate small company, creating their own systems for that that patient experience.
David Avrin: The engagement comes later on.
David Avrin: Where are you seeing some of the most beneficial advancements
David Avrin: and access?
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: And Where are some of the bottlenecks, or maybe on an unanticipated bottleneck?
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: I mean, that is, it's it's it's shifting the value proposition of sick care in my opinion from quality.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: to convenience, affordability, and experience.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: So at was things which people like me never paid attention to while paying while taking care of patients.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: The physician mindset is 99% about quality.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: Am I doing the right thing? What are my outcomes compared to whatever
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: it it's? Really not about the experience, etc. affordability.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: we where, as I said, we're concerned. But clueless. Ask your doctor how much this is going to cost. You're not going to get a straight answer, and if you do, it's probably wrong.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: So it's just not something that was part of the of the physician mindset.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: Now it has to be. If you are going to be successful in the practice of medicine, and you ignore these things. You're not. As I said, If you don't pay attention to the business of medicine. You have no business practicing medicine.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: You will eventually go out of business.
David Avrin: But at least it is it also a response
David Avrin: to a need for easy, quick access for some of the more pedestrian kinds of things. I remember when my my kids were all student athletes, I could go to the grocery store get their physical so that they could participate in sports. We can get the flu shot.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: Does that not serve an important role, if not bogging down in in sort of a traditional triage system of blogging down for what really is needed for the more intensive collaborative approach. Right? So that falls under the category of unbundling primary care.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: You can't be all things to all people.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: I mean. You can't, you know you can, but it's terribly inefficient, and it does not maximize the value of a doctor.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: It was their time frankly
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: given the present environment.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: and that is the part of the advantage of retail medicine. As long as you understand that what you are being treated for in a retail environment is pretty much low. Acuity, care.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: prevention, vaccinations having blood drawn, getting a test something like that.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: If you have chronic kidney disease with 6 other morbidities, you're not going to a retail clinic.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: so it's it. So it has to be segmented. And, in my view.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: not only does primary care have to be unbundled internally.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: I actually think we need 2 separate systems. We need a sick care system, and we need a health care system. I don't believe doctors can do both. They're simply not trained to do it.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: whether it's population, health, preventive medicine, etc., and they don't get paid to do it right. So I think it's unrealistic to burden a physician
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: with and hold them accountable for doing that. I just don't think that's doable.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: So ultimately I think we're going to see a segmentation of the 2 systems. And all. By the way, I think the next phase of the evolution of medicine
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: will probably be. Do it yourself at home, care. We're already seeing that hospitals at home, I mean. Now you can pretty much take care of yourself on the Internet.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: Ultimately, I think we're going to see radiology at home. We're going to see lab tests at home. I even think we're going to see surgery at home.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: So all we're not done yet. This this thing is going to continue to evolve.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: and that's gonna place a lot of challenges in front of not the least the medical education establishment. Because how do we teach residents and medical students how to do this
David Avrin: Well, and you're you're saying massive disruption in industries where one, I think people are taking very much off off guard, and and I know you do a lot with the sort of the cranial facial and and taught dentistry as well. Probably the best example is
David Avrin: in vis a line which gave way to smile. Direct Club, I mean visal line allowed other practitioners who weren't necessarily orthodox to do orthodox. And now you don't need to see a doctor at all
David Avrin: and and right, and they'll and they'll pay lip service. You'll see somebody online. But I I can't imagine graduating today from medical school as north and honest
David Avrin: turning on a T. Commercial for Smile Direct club. But as we talk about online, and and I think we could do a whole conversation about what surgery might look like at home. It's mirroring a lot of other industries, though. Right? I I mean we're we're being asked and being empowered to self triage
David Avrin: right if we think it's something basic, we can go to that and maybe unburden. Or maybe we couldn't get in for our primary care for something more in in, in, in in depth. The analogy, yeah, the analogy. This this applies particularly to Gen. Z.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: It's it's just a different generational mindset. You know they they They're used to looking up, stuff everything online and chat, gpt, and you name it so. And what I call this is over the counter medicine.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: So
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: back in the day. If you wanted a prescription for something, you had a doctor. Write the prescription.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: Now there's a process for converting these prescription drugs to over the counter. You just go and you buy them online.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: I'm thinking so. I'm: i'm foreseeing and and saying that we're sort of already in that phase where you can take care of yourself online without a prescription. Now, there's a downside to Da Diy medicine.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: In other words, there are perils of people taking care of themselves.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: not the least of which is, they make the wrong diagnosis. They do the wrong thing. They take stuff, they shouldn't take
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: that they're they're misled with misinformation and false advertising about things.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: So
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: it's gonna it's happening now. We just need to be sure.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: for the sake of improving patient outcomes that they understand the risks
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: and the benefits of diy medicine.
David Avrin: Let's talk about one of the challenges with that
David Avrin: which is, which is confirmation bias, right? Of course, the promise of the Internet was. With all of this new information we would become much more knowledgeable, much more empowered and now we retreat into our camps. If you are an anti-vaxor, you there are not enough hours in the next 1,000 years to consume all the content that will validate
David Avrin: your opinion.
David Avrin: How has this
David Avrin: been a struggle I saw online. There was a a a meme, and it showed a in a doctor's office, and it was a picture of a Google Logo, and it said it was on the Doctor's office wall, and it said, My medical degree is worth more than your Google search.
David Avrin: But it's not just the Google search. It's the erroneous information. It's the dangerous information I mean. There, there. There are a 1,000 sites that prove beyond a doubt in their contention that the world is flat.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: It's the same thing. There's a danger in that. Talk about that.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: And.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: for example, if and let's get back to patient engagement. And why.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: whatever you call these people, customers or patients leave.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: it has to do with, as you said, confirmation bias
basically people by emotionally and justify rationally.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: So it really, and in the age of artificial intelligence we know what trips your emotional triggers
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: to by.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: So if i'm trying to sell you, quote or to treat you quote.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: I know what's going to trip your trigger.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: All you have to do is look at
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: and
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: at things that Don't necessarily have
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: demonstrated benefit to treat your ailment.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: You know I don't want to get into the I mean. We could get into the conversation of Vitamins nut for suitable magnetic bracelets. You name it.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: We we all know this, and some would argue. Digital health
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: is snake oil.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: So what is real and what is snake oil? And why is it that some people, patients, customers, whatever you call them.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: buy your product? Because it
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: trips an emotional trigger.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: and that is informed by your experience, confirmation bias all the other stuff.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: So that's why i'm saying that whether you perceive a patient as a patient for a patient as a customer determines how you will market and engage them.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: It's a great
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: yeah. You might not like that. You may like it. I don't know but it if that's what we're seeing.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: And incidentally, the United States, for example.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: is only one of 2 countries in the world that allows TV pharmaceutical advertising.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: The other is New Zealand.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: But how many doctors do you see on television? Unlike lawyers
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: advertising
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: their latest fen tech thing
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: that they don't do it, and there's a reason for it, and it has to do with the culture of medicine. Not the least of which
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: State Board of Medical Examiner regulations and oversight concerning
David Avrin: people are truly in the health, care profession, who have taken the Hippocratic oath that Don't apply to
David Avrin: those who may believe in their heart of hearts, though there is no clinical evidence to support that, or they can't make those claims to the FDA that this particular erectile dysfunction pill, or this test it's, got testified, which, of course, means not testosterone right?
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: And and the dirty little secret in medicine is Doctors don't like it when other doctors say i'm better than you
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: right. They simply don't like it.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: and they and I've I've had that experience. I've had doctors pull me over in a hallway and say, what makes you think you're so good. Literally.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: So it's a culture. It's it's it's what happens inside. So consequently, when you grow up to be a doctor, you don't do it
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: like I'm not necessarily sure that's a good thing or a bad thing. I'm just saying that it is what it is, and we look at sort of the convergence from a consumer perspective, and I'm absolutely going to use the terminology. We're patients in this context.
David Avrin: We are patients, but people see themselves as patients in a natural pathic environment. They see themselves as patients because they believe enough websites, and i'm not going to do chemo, and i'm just going to do. And I don't want to
David Avrin: sto anything, whether it's prayer or vitamins, or those other things that that people believe in their heart and of hearts. And there's enough evidence in some realm that will help them believe it. But there's the convergence is is interesting because I work with so many different industries. We are consumers of of health care.
David Avrin: There there are our new easy access, and then there's things that make things more difficult. So it's it's, it's it's something I would would love to to touch base from time to time, I think, from the consumer perspective. We're it's. It's the same across industry we're looking for ease and and simplicity
David Avrin: and and confidence and convenience.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: Well.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: I, the those are different value factors that different patients want
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: you You You can't just say everybody wants that
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: they sort, I mean, does everybody want a a a decent, patient experience, Sure. But
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: when it comes to, for example, when it comes to choosing a doctor, doctors basically do 2, 3, 2, 3 things. They make decisions they do perform. They they do procedures and
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: things, and they communicate
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: empathize. That's like manner. Very well.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: Patients are different. Some will say you know what.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: and I've had people tell me this.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: I don't care that you're a cold fish. I heard you're a good diagnosis and a good technician.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: Okay, great.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: I am what I am. I think it's pretty hard to be a triple threat.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: but other people will say this guy is impossible. He doesn't Listen to me. He doesn't talk to me. He doesn't he spent 5 min talking to me. I would go to him if you were the last doctor on her. Okay.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: So you so? Not everybody wants the same thing.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: And oh, by the way, there are certain patients that will say, this guy charges of fortune. He must be much better than everybody else. Right? Perception of quality. Yeah.
David Avrin: right? What what's interesting also is is almost the level of care dictates that as well for my pediatrician, for when my kids were small I wanted somebody who was had a great bedside manner who could talk my kids through their vaccinations right?
David Avrin: I'm going in for surgery
David Avrin: on a on a on a sensitive body part. I want swagger.
David Avrin: I want to see that surgeon
David Avrin: hang up his his cape and sword as he walks into that er
David Avrin: I don't care about the arrogance at at that point. It's it's well listen. We could talk forever. It it's fascinating to look at at the changes of how we access care. Certainly the growth, the the face to face, virtual visits that I was doing before, because I travel extensively. My health care is through Kaiser, and because i'm in Colorado it's just a few states so that that that
David Avrin: that tell a dock has been part of my life for a lot of years. But for a lot of people this is a new thing, and it's preventing people from having to having to go into the office and all those well, so real quickly. Couple of minutes left. Let me do a quick speed round for you and and and and give me quick answers on these things.
David Avrin: Would it be beneficial
David Avrin: for medical students to be required to take business classes as well.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: Yes.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: in fact, we are. We are working very hard to do that.
David Avrin: Yeah. I mean, we. We we saw that it for years a lot of them who were in practice. They're very good at the clinical side, but they were not told how to. Here's how to buy the equipment, and set up the practice as well
David Avrin: to me. What, in your opinion, the best and worse things
David Avrin: about virtual doctor visits face to face. What's the best part of it. What's the worst part about it?
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: The best part is convenience. The worst part about it is that there are some things that just simply are not amenable to telemedicine, and my specialty in a. And t
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: is is an example. If you look at the specialties that we use telemedicine, and t is, break down on the list, because if you have a a large deal or a voice problem.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: I can't tell you what's going on unless I can put a scope in your nose and look at your voice box, and generally you can do that via television
David Avrin: absolutely.
David Avrin: What do you think is is
David Avrin: a growing, unrealistic expectations of Americans
David Avrin: specifically in terms of their about their health care. What what are the most unrealistic expectations
that the Us. Health care spend will diminish over the next 5 years
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: that every year we say it is an unsustainable increase in Gdp spend that is not going to happen, in my opinion in the foreseeable future.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: and the only, as as I said, the only way.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: the only way we're going to change that is, through legislation and rules.
David Avrin: Do you see the
David Avrin: who do you see leading that conversation in your work with the entrepreneurial community within health care? Do you see that as a as a group of of outliers, more creative ways of looking at. How do we deliver? How do we create the technologies and the delivery systems outside of the traditional hospital based system.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: right? Another unrealistic expectation is that sick care can be fixed from inside.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: People like me are people that contributed to the problem. And now you're expecting me to solve.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: The fact of the matter is that almost no industry can be fixed from inside and changes in sick. There will come from outside of sick here as you're seeing now.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: Aerospace Nano. It artificial intelligence, Nano: materials
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: media technology, all that stuff that's what's in form and retail.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: That's what's informing the change. So I tell people, if you want to see innovation in health care, don't go to a medical meeting.
David Avrin: is it because there's a financial incentive to do so.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: It's because because it's the largest industry in the United States, and 4.3 trillion attracts a lot of picks to the trough.
David Avrin: who are very protective of that, and people that don't want to give up their vested interest.
David Avrin: Understandable.
David Avrin: Dr. Arlene Myers, I love these conversations. I spent the first 10 years of my career in healthcare and health care communications. So for me, revisiting all of this is fascinating. If people want to learn more about you and learn about the Society for Physician entrepreneurs. How do they get in touch with you?
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: Yeah. So the best way is to get to me on linkedin. I'm always, you know, sort of all over the Internet I'm. Pretty hard to ignore. And the second is that the Society of Physician entrepreneurs is that Www.
Arlen Meyers, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs: that soap net. So P. E net.org it's an open innovation. Networks. You don't have to be a doctor or surgeon, or a health professional.
David Avrin: and if somebody that has some sort of services or support or interest in that, it's a great organization, i'm. I'm a member of it as well. Dr. Myers thanks for being with us. Hang on! I'll talk to you on the other side. I just want to remind everybody you can pick up a copy of my new book.
David Avrin: the Morning Huddle, Powerful customer experience conversations to wake you up and shake you up and win more business. In fact, all of my books that are strategically located next to my head are available on Amazon, some of those in other languages and audio book, and everything else. As well. Be sure to subscribe click to like this podcast. Leave a comment and click the little bell. You'll receive notification. We have new episodes here for the new season. Thanks for tuning in Once again the white customers lead podcast big thanks to my guest, Dr. Arlen, Myers.
David Avrin: I'm, David Aver and be good.