Jay clark interview - working in the not-for-profit trenches
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We've all learned in recent years to be flexible, to do more with less, to combat disruptions and Labor shortages. Well, there are a few organizations more adept at navigating these challenges, but they're often underfunded and making do with limited resources. Well my guest today is Jay Clark, he has spent decades working in the not-for-profit trenches, and now, he helps leaders creatively tap unexplored resources to find the support they need to effectively do the important work that they do.
David Avrin: Hey friends, thanks and welcome to the customer experience advantage podcast. We talked about customer experience in business and all those things, I think, are all really interrelated.
David Avrin: Early in my career, I spent a lot of years working in not for profits and it's really a great training for for young workers for employees, I think there was some.
David Avrin: statistic way back when that I think was 6% of the workforce at some point had worked at a mcdonald's or something like that.
David Avrin: I think the better place to start is not for profits, primarily because.
David Avrin: They are underfunded that everybody does everything you know a lot of bigger organizations, people are siloed they have a specific job, a specific task of responsibility.
David Avrin: In my early years working in healthcare and hospitals and others as well.
David Avrin: You kind of did everything, because you had to because they didn't have enough staff to do everything but it's wonderful training ground.
David Avrin: My guest today is Jay Clark and full disclosure a great friend, all the way back from my youth, but i've just been such a fan, in addition to a friend and watching his career.
David Avrin: He spent some early years doing PR with the Denver nuggets with the professional sports team did great things we actually reconnected when my band sang the national anthem, a few times way back when.
David Avrin: But he's also and i'll read this here because I want to make sure I get this right, and it will do a more formal.
David Avrin: hello to a Jay Clark, but after serving as Executive Director for three not for profits Jay Clark found a JC charity and events services to fill an entrepreneurial calling to serve others.
David Avrin: The goal of JC charity event services is to bolster the efforts of organizations doing great work in the Community who need a little extra horsepower and expertise and expertise to accomplish their goals, so I will i'll say thanks Jay for joining us on the show today.
Jay Clark: Thanks Dave it's a it's an honor to be here.
David Avrin: It is an honor isn't it.
Jay Clark: It is you know back in 1988 my friend Doug moe one nba coach of the year award and I remember, he was so overwhelmed at when they gave him the award.
Jay Clark: You know the big marks from the nba office came in, they give him this award he was so overwhelmed he said everybody else who has won this award before me has just been discredited and I.
Jay Clark: Hope I don't do that to all of your know here here's what I really appreciate you, you have been sorted that other serving but you've done it very strategically.
David Avrin: Over the years, you've been executive director of organizations that there isn't there is a there aren't enough resources to go around right there's a lot of not for profits 501 C three s and C sixes and others that exist to serve the Community good.
David Avrin: And if half of them went away a lot of people wouldn't be served, but others would be probably better funded tell me about the work that you did, and the things that you know we always like to say don't just tell us what you've done tell us what you learned.
David Avrin: Tell us what you learned in those in those years of leading these organizations.
David Avrin: and trying to effectively deliver the services within the constraints that you that you were faced with.
Jay Clark: yeah you know you're exactly right on a on a couple points, the number of nonprofits is staggering in Colorado alone it's well over 20,008% of the workforce, I believe, is something silly like that are employed with nonprofits so there.
Jay Clark: are just a bajillion of them out there, I think one of the big mistakes that some nonprofits make is they look at it, that we're a nonprofit not a business and as a good friend of mine once told me.
Jay Clark: If you can go out of business guess what you're a business, so I think that's a big point that a lot of nonprofits and the ones i've worked at.
Jay Clark: I have been lucky to to be around entrepreneurial leadership that is very much treated.
Jay Clark: Any nonprofit effort as a as a business initiative business effort everything's got to be driven by.
Jay Clark: Can this sustain itself financially if it can't how are we going to do it if if we if we can't find a way to sustain this.
Jay Clark: You know, we have to look at doing something else so that's that's one of the big things that i've learned over the years, is that you really do need to look at yourself as a as a nonprofit that you are a business.
Jay Clark: And everything everything in the business world definitely applies to a nonprofit.
David Avrin: yeah absolutely well, the only real difference is where the profits go right.
Jay Clark: I love the line, this is when.
David Avrin: I used to ask my audience i'd say you're in business, for one reason what's the reason you're in business and I get all these hands to serve this to do this, I said no you're in business, to make a profit.
David Avrin: yep how you do that how Ben and jerry's does different than Microsoft.
David Avrin: don't make a profit you're not in business, the different with.
David Avrin: With not for profits, we should call them nonprofits with worse, I think it's a misnomer.
David Avrin: it's better.
David Avrin: right that the money is reinvested within the organization it's a steaming revenue talk to me about some of the unique challenges that not for profits have in because their their source of revenue oftentimes is different it's not necessarily a purchase transaction is.
Jay Clark: Exactly and that that's you make a great point that's that's the biggest difference is most nonprofits don't have any kind of recurring revenue.
Jay Clark: or passive revenue or or revenue generation, other than leaning on the goodness of people's hearts and and philanthropy and everything else, and the some of the super successful.
Jay Clark: nonprofit nonprofits children's hospital that you're intimately aware with.
Jay Clark: Short think of that Gala that they do that monster Gala you have to find ways to generate revenue and.
Jay Clark: You know i'm not a big fan of out of the box as thinking, but I think you always have to be creative and everything you do I think you have to figure out a way to.
Jay Clark: attach a revenue component to it, I mean, I understand, feeding feeding people that are hungry or we're providing homeless people with shelter.
Jay Clark: You know there's not a revenue probably a revenue generation for that, but there's ways, you can look at that to find partnerships that maybe you can generate revenue off of that so.
Jay Clark: You know you always I think he always said, like you say you always have to be thinking, how can we use this, how can we use the assets that we've created the assets at our disposal.
Jay Clark: To to generate revenue or create you know opportunities to hype other people that they're going to be willing to pay for those opportunities.
David Avrin: So let's talk about delivering value so different organizations called their audiences different things.
David Avrin: Right politicians call them constituents retail calls them customers right professional services call them clients healthcare calls them patients within the not for profit world it is what what's the terminology supporters believers donors, all the above.
Jay Clark: yeah all the above the way that we like to in the in the organization that i've worked with the way that we like to approach people, as we call them partners because they really are.
Jay Clark: partners with us in accomplishing our mission, you know you could call people donors or supporters or whatnot but, at the end of the day, for us, they truly are partners, because if we're partnering together.
Jay Clark: Then, then we have a chance to succeed succeed and achieve our mission, but you know for just looking at them as givers.
Jay Clark: or supporters where it's just a one way street, we always really try to create kind of that two way that two way street, where if you're a partner with organization.
Jay Clark: You know we're going to do our darndest to provide value back to you, whether that's something that you can then take to your customers and brag about.
Jay Clark: Look at the great stuff we're doing in the Community to help or we're directly bringing customers to you that are coming to you through our organization.
Jay Clark: You have to look at things at that way to me it's always been the partnership is always what what makes it go, because if it's if it's a donor situation or just a.
Jay Clark: supporter situation, it does kind of become transactional where it's like give me the money thanks I can do great stuff with this i'll let you know how it goes.
David Avrin: But but marketing and as we talked about customer experience.
Jay Clark: Which is.
David Avrin: A driver of somebody wanting to do business with you, there are some very close equations between going up for customers and going out for supporters are.
David Avrin: Totally cause, and so you know in back in my days and you had mentioned with children's hospital some of the others as well.
David Avrin: Is we're always looking for sort of those ideal customers, which are the people like if we're looking from a foundation perspective somebody has a connection to the hospital they had a child who was sick they're part of a an affliction community.
David Avrin: Right right, and so our communication with them had to be making them feel a part of this connected to this so they're invested in this.
David Avrin: was a little bit about that as well.
Jay Clark: Well that's that's one of the beautiful things to me about not profit work is most of the time, and you can attest, that when you're working in this it's something that you are very passionate about.
Jay Clark: So when your communications and your marketing when you're thinking about being creative and how do I, how do I market to this it's something that so you're so usually so passionate about that that'll flow.
Jay Clark: And come about easily so that's I think that's a that's a advantage in nonprofits is.
Jay Clark: Being able to take a message if you're working at children's hospital and you're going to somebody and saying look, you can change by donating and partnering with this, you can change the whole trajectory of this family's life by you know, making their kid better I mean good Lord.
David Avrin: But let's let's go more micro and macro.
David Avrin: When you're working with a specific maybe a faith based charity, maybe something having to do with youth you guys, I mean there isn't enough money to market to everybody.
David Avrin: Now look for those likely to feel a real connection.
David Avrin: Right, whether it's a corporate sponsor because you share an audience or others as well.
David Avrin: Those are the internal conversations you really have to be effective in your targeting to look for those supporters and donors and corporate partners and others as well.
Jay Clark: yeah you do and and the other thing that the Rings a bell with this conversation is I remember seeing in one of your.
Jay Clark: Speeches once it was talking about one of the biggest threats to your business is the customer that you don't know about.
Jay Clark: And the customer who you know, makes a touch point with your organization that you don't even realize makes it touch point.
Jay Clark: And then they're gone and you lost them that used to keep me up at night, when I was executive director of this organization is you think you get in this bubble that oh everybody knows about us, which is not true, and you start.
Jay Clark: Thinking about oh my God, there are so many people out there that have no idea we even exist, that if they did, would probably be all over helping us and how do we get that word out that again that's kind of a macro.
Jay Clark: Macro thing but on a micro level you're.
Jay Clark: you're completely right it what it's looking at people you know working for a faith based organization which I have you have to find those people that are.
Jay Clark: You know super into whatever whatever cause that is education.
Jay Clark: And, and then it's working those relationships those partnerships for them to open up more doors for you that's always been a big key to any success we've had is.
Jay Clark: You know you'll have a core group of relationships, how can you use those relationships to open more doors, with people that you never knew would never know who are out there, that that don't know that you exist.
David Avrin: sure you know, one of the biggest challenges for many in business is that reoccurring customer The lifetime value of a customer yeah ones that aren't transactional if you're buying.
David Avrin: You know, some little component and you find.
David Avrin: A deal online out of China that's different than building that real relationship, because the ongoing revenue that is sustainable for an organization to make sure that we're here next year comes from.
David Avrin: keeping them engaged and continuing to deliver how has that here's a question for you how has that changed in recent years.
David Avrin: Well, how has the competition.
David Avrin: exacerbated that challenge.
Jay Clark: yeah I mean you know the competition like I say there's 10s of thousands of nonprofits and they're all there's only one Daniel fund.
Jay Clark: or one color a health foundation, you know the competition is intense so it's really important to build up your constituents and create those.
Jay Clark: Partnerships where it's not transactional, so it is again to me, this is another beauty of the nonprofit world is it does provide the opportunity to create those those kind of one on one relationships.
Jay Clark: That you have to create, and this is this was always an issue for me as an executive director is you're running around crazy trying you've got an audit coming up or you've got your Gala coming up or you've got your program you're trying to do you get so tunneled into the day to day.
Jay Clark: Work the big picture and go, you know I really wish I could take an afternoon to go golfing with our biggest donor and you're thinking.
Jay Clark: Oh, I can't take an afternoon off to go golfing with the biggest star well.
Jay Clark: surprise if you do that, that biggest donor after spending four hours with him, he might have three of his buddies that he can now introduce you to so the relationship piece, I think, is often overlooked, a lot in nonprofit leadership.
Jay Clark: Just in it and not consciously it's just the time thing.
David Avrin: Right, but how do you sustain it that's a real question, how do you, what are the internal conversations like what do you deliver to them next time it's not just about staying in contact you know more than a few resources in.
David Avrin: writing or whatever to do that.
David Avrin: yeah what is it that you can do to say here's new value here's new proof of the of the effectiveness of the work that you did here's an event that you want to be a part of.
David Avrin: Writing keep them in the full having a rolodex you know, old people like us, have turned on another call it the database having a database means nothing if we're not keeping them engaged.
Jay Clark: that's exactly right and and you know those are those are a lot of mistakes i've made over the career my career is.
Jay Clark: You connect with somebody you start off great you have a great start and then like you say they they end up going away it's it's not the easiest thing in the world to do to sustain those relationships.
Jay Clark: But again, these are the internal conversations that we would always have is okay we've got these guys they're super into what we're doing.
Jay Clark: How do we continue to build those relationships, maybe it's you know when I was with the gopro foundation, it was, we had a great partner it's like well what if we open up our facility for them for a day, and they have a company play day.
Jay Clark: At our facility, you have to always kind of think of, and I understand, not everybody has access to those those.
David Avrin: right but it's a good example.
Jay Clark: But but there's always ways to think of ways to engage your your partners and your donors and your supporters, whether that's.
Jay Clark: You know let's let's get together and have a beer let's have a FA see with everybody on a on a Friday afternoon in our courtyard or let's.
Jay Clark: You know at the golf event let's not just get out of our cars, through our bags and the cards play and and then we're out of here, what if we have a.
Jay Clark: What if we draft for our prizes instead of just giving stuff away to keep the always got to find ways like you say you always have to find ways to engage people.
Jay Clark: and make them go make a memorable memorable excuse me memorable experiences right so.
Jay Clark: that's again that's that's part of the fun, for me, is is the creative piece of that it's like well we've already done that we've we've done the the the rubber chicken Gala so.
Jay Clark: What can we do in place of that.
David Avrin: What and how much do you learn.
David Avrin: from watching other organizations, not necessarily even like minded you know different types of organizations around the world across the country.
David Avrin: How much do we beg borrow steal be inspired by somebody else's great idea because some of the best ideas are certainly outside of our traditional experiences.
Jay Clark: No question and that's one of the reasons i'm wondering, am I such a huge fan of your podcast is your guests always I can build like i'm always.
Jay Clark: Finding something that I can rip off off from them, but that it's it's always the creative thing is always you know to me that's the juice that keeps you going.
Jay Clark: And I love that part of it, and I think.
Jay Clark: You know, again, if you have to use that creativity from the customer experience standpoint right let's be creative and how we can engage and keep bringing these people back, because if we if we hold an event and it's got a great turnout and everybody comes and they don't have fun.
Jay Clark: What What have we done.
Jay Clark: Right.
David Avrin: If you get everybody engaged.
David Avrin: And you aren't following up and asking for that.
David Avrin: that's a within the context of a not for profit.
David Avrin: Then oh boss of mine, used to say when you do it, you don't end up getting the final result it's like it's like peeing in your pants give you a warm feeling for a minute.
David Avrin: it's not going to do you much good in the long run, talk to us about the creativity, because I know you do work with with JC charity event services.
David Avrin: You work with senior leaders of not for profits to help them expand revenue sources and fresh ideas, because, to be fair they're all they all are good at this because they.
David Avrin: have sustained their organization.
Jay Clark: Right.
David Avrin: But there's pieces and opportunities and revenue sources that they're missing tell me about the work that you do from a consulting perspective to bolster the efforts that they're currently engaged in.
Jay Clark: Right and you're 110% correct and I think anybody who's been in in any management role nonprofit for profit anything has this.
Jay Clark: affliction where there's always one more thing you can do, but you never quite get to there's always one more email, you can send there's always one more letter you can write there's always one more card, you can write her phone call you can make.
Jay Clark: The nonprofit leaders get so justifiably so tied up in the day to day and accomplishing their program matic mission.
Jay Clark: That they really oftentimes don't have a chance to step back and take a bigger look at what our opportunities we're missing what.
Jay Clark: You know where could where who are we not talking to again going back to the customer experience, who was out there, that would love what we're doing but, as no idea we exist.
Jay Clark: Right that's what I can come in and kind of help ferret out, you know I wish I had a magic warm that I could come in and go wave wave there's your million dollars and you're you're good Now you can pay all your bills in your consent stain your operations.
Jay Clark: What I can do, though, I can't do that what I can do is come in and go let's look at what you don't have time to do that if you did could generate revenue for your organization, whether that's an appeal, a campaign.
Jay Clark: Making your event more memorable those are the kind of things where I can add value.
David Avrin: Right and in your experience working with different ones you bring that outside perspective.
David Avrin: When i'm.
David Avrin: When i'm speaking and i'm and i'm talking to a an organization in hotel and hospitality or financial services or dentistry i'm the outside voice.
David Avrin: Right i'm saying here's what we're learning from other industries as they apply to you, you abroad experience within the context of not for profits but different ones than the ones that you're working with so you can bring that different perspective, what is the value of that for them.
Jay Clark: You know I think one of the big pieces of value, there is that.
Jay Clark: Being you know the advanced age that I am and the advanced experience that I am i've made i've made a lot of mistakes.
Jay Clark: So i've seen things that have worked, and just as importantly i've seen things that haven't worked so I think I can you know I think again, you get in a little bit of this bubble.
Jay Clark: Where it's like well we've we've it's it's September, that means it's time for the fall Gala the fall Gala means we do the silent auction, and we do this, this is this.
Jay Clark: Right well you know what if you did this and somebody inside the organization.
Jay Clark: is not going to probably have the ability to say that or the courage to step forward and go, you know the silent auction it takes so much work.
Jay Clark: And really doesn't raise that much money is there, something else we can do, in place of that that might make the customer experience even better at this event.
Jay Clark: Internally that's that's tough and i've seen that, where people don't want to challenge somebody.
Jay Clark: But if i'm the outsider I can come in and say and do that all day long, just like you did you come in all day long and you challenge people well what if you did it why haven't you ever done this.
Jay Clark: never thought of that well let's think about it.
David Avrin: A little risky internally to challenge your boss on that level.
David Avrin: When you come in on that level because you're you're consulting with the executive directors, you might work with their team.
David Avrin: right but it's bringing that collaborative experience.
David Avrin: Right to challenge them and they'll, be they are the first to admit that they're pretty overwhelmed with what's already on their plate.
Jay Clark: True, and that's that's why I think you know first step in any of this is kind of sitting down and going okay obviously you're doing something well.
Jay Clark: let's not mess with that, but what are we, what are we missing and and can we engage your board better most you know again from mistakes i've seen.
Jay Clark: You know we've had some really great board members that are practically begging to engage with the organization, but then, but the executive director, myself included, it gets so busy with.
Jay Clark: You know the programmatic piece of this that you don't really have the opportunity to engage your board members in a meaningful way so then what's their experience so like well I go to the meetings and I sit and listen for an hour and then.
David Avrin: And I can say i'm on the board oh.
Jay Clark: Sam on the organization.
Jay Clark: yeah.
Jay Clark: And then, a month later, another table.
David Avrin: Right and I could fill up the table at their Gala.
David Avrin: Right yeah but leveraging that's a great point that leveraging resources and others.
David Avrin: Who are true believers in all of this, as well talk for a second.
David Avrin: And i'd love your perspective on this because I talked to organizations, about how their customers and clients and patients and constituents.
David Avrin: have changed our expectations for access and immediacy of convenience within the the the not for profit world and some of these are significant organizations we're providing you know millions of dollars of services.
David Avrin: How have their constituents and the people that they serve How have they changed during this time of of changing expectations.
Jay Clark: You know I to me the biggest one is I think there's a definitely a different and a higher plane of people being savvy about what what they're going to support and where they're going to go for services if you're a nonprofit that can't.
Jay Clark: can't deliver what you promise, or if you're not going to provide a good experience for people at your events or whatnot there are so many options and it's such a competitive landscape, but donors are savvy.
Jay Clark: corporations are savvy.
David Avrin: Everybody hears everything online so.
Jay Clark: Everything everybody will.
David Avrin: know if something doesn't work.
Jay Clark: You know I remember it's another one that i've loved from one of your speeches, where it's like you have to conduct your business, like everybody has a is watching you with a video camera because guess what they are.
Jay Clark: There that's a brilliant thing and.
Jay Clark: The constituents you work with and the constituents you serve have gotten far more savvy because of all the information that's available to them, now that you have to be prepared and ready to meet those challenges.
David Avrin: yeah we're all serving customers whatever you call them.
Jay Clark: And for those who are watching or listening or watching this on my channel or my on my YouTube channel.
David Avrin: we're all answering to somebody and especially guys like you and I, we work for ourselves, we have staff and teams and others as well, but it really talks about how does it feel to be your own bus every one of our clients is our boss.
Jay Clark: that's it, I remember when I.
Jay Clark: First, started to do this yeah buddy of mine said, you know I said I want to be my own boss, he goes congratulations you've now got you're going to have 100 bosses exactly one day i'll have 100 boxes, but.
Jay Clark: you're 100% correct.
David Avrin: yeah and so we're all serving and so that's why I thought conversation like this is good because there's different perspectives and how do you engage and speak to an audience that to get them to support you and we do the same thing in business.
David Avrin: As we're looking for who our best customers and clients.
David Avrin: Who are true believers that are going to be sustaining.
David Avrin: Right, for what we do.
David Avrin: And you can you can apply this to almost any industry, who are the most likely to buy from you frequent you visit us support you, whatever that might be, and those people have to love us and continue to love us to have those conversations is really.
David Avrin: Important as well we're trying to do their part.
Jay Clark: No go ahead, please yeah I think another part that sometimes is you end up.
Jay Clark: i'm not sure how often this happens in the business world, but i've definitely seen it in the nonprofit world where you'll get regular supporters who are all in.
Jay Clark: And what happens you end up taking them for granted and and that's just as important that goes back to the customer experience as much as anything is.
Jay Clark: don't take your supporters and your partners for granted, you have to continue to just because they're all in doesn't mean they're always going to be all in and again it goes back to everything that you that you teach Davis is so right on I wish.
David Avrin: But.
Jay Clark: The nonprofit association would have your address that oh you're all you're so nice please continue.
David Avrin: it's but no, I like that point, because there are it's a huge mistake that everybody in many in business make.
David Avrin: Right, he is assuming right that silence, you know we haven't heard anything bad so they must.
David Avrin: be fine and meanwhile somebody else.
David Avrin: That was a love to take your longtime customer.
David Avrin: and convert them into their first time customer.
David Avrin: Absolutely and it's the same thing as long as they feel.
David Avrin: valued and included and engaged and and thanked and stroked you know whether it's swag.
David Avrin: or things like that, as well, and you see this certainly across the.
David Avrin: Not for profit community.
David Avrin: Right, the the the blanket the T shirt or whatever that says here's this for that continuing donation here's what you will receive and here's the.
David Avrin: And the things that you get if people want to get in touch with with you Jay Clark with JC charity event services, how do they get in touch with you.
Jay Clark: They can find me online at making our world better calm or J AC charity services COM i'd love to have a conversation with anybody about how how we might be able to look at your operation and see where there's new opportunities.
David Avrin: yeah great opportunity, bolstered, of course, we will have all of that information in the show notes.
David Avrin: as well, where we post this podcast on all of the major audio platforms in the video version on my site as well Jay Clark Thank you so much, my good friend, I love the work that you do I think what you do is.
Jay Clark: always at arm's REACH.
Jay Clark: oh seven out of reach.
David Avrin: For those listening, as he holds up my book, why customers leave.
Jay Clark: My customers leave and how to bring them back again go.
Jay Clark: Anybody in the nonprofit world who's in management or don't relationship read this.
David Avrin: It makes a perfect holiday gift.
David Avrin: or something we're in like six languages on that one which is crazy.
David Avrin: Jay Clark hang on we'll talk, on the other side.
David Avrin: Thanks dancer pick up and i'm going to promote my new one pick up a copy of my new book the morning huddle.
David Avrin: Powerful customer experience conversations to wake you up and shake you up and win more business, this is based on my video series as well be sure to actually all my books are available on Amazon.
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David Avrin: At David Avrin calm thanks for joining us on the customer experience advantage podcast remember leave a comment big thanks to my guest Jay Clark i'm David Avrin be good.