Jochem van der Veer Interview - managing the customer journey
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We all go on a journey when we buy products and contract for services and engage with vendors and sellers. Well, that customer journey can either be inadvertent and sporadic or, in the best of circumstances, it's intentional and designed and refined and perfected. Today on the podcast I'm talking with Jochem van der Veer about the customer journey mapping more specifically about journey management. How do you make sure that everyone on your team is on the same page and your customers can easily navigate your path?
David Avrin: You know, this is an interesting subject today that i'm eager to talk about which is the whole idea of journey mapping and.
David Avrin: I think people define it a lot of different ways, and we look at how we do business with companies has changed dramatically right how much of it.
David Avrin: that used to be just driving to a retail location, of course, many businesses are B2B but today there's.
David Avrin: Internet resources there's things we do on our mobile devices, how do we IDA and contact and reach out.
David Avrin: and connect and buy and customize and all of that, when it is intentional there's much more that we can influence much more that we control.
David Avrin: can control so today we're we're joined i'm joined by yogananda here, let me give you a quick introduction for him, and it will say hi officially.
David Avrin: You know, anyone who's working with customer journeys will deeply resonate with the struggle to align everyone around a shared understanding of the customer experience as Co founder and CEO of they do.
David Avrin: The customer journey management solution for enterprise yogananda here is pushing the boundaries of modern customer experience management, enabling true cross team collaboration.
David Avrin: In today's increasingly virtual world, having worked in interaction with.
David Avrin: ux design for 10 plus years you'll come as well versed in the power of truly waking walking in your customers shoes and passionate about helping companies transform towards a customer centric way of working yoakam thanks for being with us on the show.
Jochem van der Veer: And it's like it's beer.
David Avrin: So so you'll comes in Amsterdam, but their work is is worldwide, they have created you have created a SAS model software as a service that helps organizations do what.
Jochem van der Veer: manage journey is the way they already managed products, I think that's The easiest way to sum it up, but I guess you want to dig into what.
David Avrin: I was gonna say let's let's do a little more make a little more.
David Avrin: I don't know complicated is the right word, but you know I think people have different views and, certainly, I think, on the enterprise level.
David Avrin: organizations have been doing this for some time doesn't mean that they've been doing it well and it doesn't mean that there's any level of.
David Avrin: Great visibility and collaboration within organizations, but for smaller businesses and for those who aspire to grow define it for us, I mean we know what it's like how it is people come in and work with us or buy from us, but it's much more granular than that isn't it.
Jochem van der Veer: Right, it is and don't play in a lot of marketing automation tools or something like that you have the journey which says hey the moment we can measure something from you and we can serve some content and see how you interact with that that's what we call the journey.
Jochem van der Veer: The journey is we're talking about go way before the event even started or go way beyond and really look into what are people doing.
Jochem van der Veer: When they are trying to complete a goal try to buy a product or hire a product, if you will just be done if they hire product to do a job for them, and why do they do what they do, and you can imagine why we are called.
Jochem van der Veer: Data in that sense, but maybe we can go and take it one step back to the the journey itself.
Jochem van der Veer: Because there's a big difference between journey mapping and journey management, as we see it in organizations rising up today because.
Jochem van der Veer: The journey map is just a tool, I don't know I think probably most of your listeners will know it's a tool to see an overview of all the steps that the customer goes through.
Jochem van der Veer: When completing that goal, and then looking into what are we as a business doing to support that what insights have we capture around their frustrations their pains, or maybe the things we can improve but also.
Jochem van der Veer: From a marketing perspective, what is the content day see our product perspective when de de see the product experiences can be touch it and in store, and they pre order, whatever they can.
Jochem van der Veer: And from maybe a feature perspective, what are the features landing pages things people can do with our digital products, and those are all like the lanes in a customer journey now.
Jochem van der Veer: Before we started day two we were like a cx SWAT team, we went in like into an organization like fortune 500 size organization.
Jochem van der Veer: And we help them, set up a customer journey driven way of working, we did that, with three maps and said hey let's research what this customer experiences about and use the journey to align different teams.
Jochem van der Veer: And Lo and behold, at the end of the research trajectory the board or management and all the teams would be in the room, and we would present and everyone's like.
Jochem van der Veer: amazing never knew these insights were there, and this sounds like something we can improve and on Monday was business as usual.
Jochem van der Veer: Sure, so we figured if we are the only users of this tool it's not gonna fly and it's not going to help people to ally and beyond a single project.
David Avrin: So I was gonna say knowing where there might be challenges in doing something about it or having a tools to collaborative do something about are very different things aren't.
Jochem van der Veer: exactly when the journey is known to people, it might be that the insights are obvious or what you can do about it let's say you have a solution in mind, or maybe even.
Jochem van der Veer: know what the opportunity is like you want to address that doesn't mean you can do something about it, we all have like that whole train running, we all have different ideas of what our priorities and our backups are so.
Jochem van der Veer: What does it little journey going to change because it has been researched and, and that is a typical problem that we saw a few years back, before starting data that.
Jochem van der Veer: it's really hard to get that buy in from all the different teams to do something about it, so instead of forcing that to people we thought.
Jochem van der Veer: let's go one step further, what if you can manage your knees together from the perspective of different teams that will have their own priorities, but you can find way to lie across all these journeys.
Jochem van der Veer: To say within the company strategy within our customer experience strategy, what are all the opportunities that we have identified that actually fit into what we as a company want to change when to influence what to do.
Jochem van der Veer: And that little process is what we have implemented on top of journey said, you can start managing them rather than only visualizing them.
David Avrin: Alright, so let's back up a little bit so especially enterprise on that level, these are big companies they know what they're doing, I mean, these are complicated organizations, they understand who buys from and they understand why.
David Avrin: So here's my question for you, what are they not getting what do they think they know but they really don't so when you're brought into an organization.
David Avrin: What are they experiencing what pain, are they feeling that that makes them reach out to you, and what do they what do they misunderstand what did they think they understand.
David Avrin: And, and you can help bring new insight into that.
Jochem van der Veer: yeah Let me take a step of that and it has to do with the shift in focus of, especially in enterprise that.
Jochem van der Veer: In today's role customer experience is the Holy grill, it is the strategy and.
Jochem van der Veer: Sure let's not talk about how some companies fail to turn it into something actionable and just say customer experiences, the strategy.
Jochem van der Veer: As nothing, what does it mean for your business but let's say you have that defined what is experience mean for you, that typically means that.
Jochem van der Veer: Experience used to be domain of product or ux ux research ux design user experience design in a company that's where the X to experience was.
Jochem van der Veer: maintained, they were typically the voice of the customer in your organization and then turning that into digital solutions.
Jochem van der Veer: But now, because experiences this this holistic thing in new organization that everyone should be fitting into and aspiring to influence or improving.
Jochem van der Veer: That means that marketing, that means that sales, that means there's that the internal process organization that operations that everyone in our organization, I was responsible for part of the customer experience.
Jochem van der Veer: And how do we get overview of how we are doing as a team, but to get her has different teams from different departments.
Jochem van der Veer: working as one to improve the experience and that's why people know us are looking into journeys to create those overviews.
Jochem van der Veer: But, as you can imagine, and like when we work with that's a company like Johnson and Johnson our ncr some of those large enterprise companies in the US.
Jochem van der Veer: That work with journeys to have dozens sometimes hundreds of journeys that all are interconnected have interdependent relationships and.
Jochem van der Veer: What you can imagine that version 6.5 Point seven a PDF or an excel file it's not going to cut it, but neither I the whiteboards because it's just flatland it's all posted all over the place, you have.
Jochem van der Veer: messy boards and there's literally no overview nothing that holds them together so that was the first problem we tried to solve is.
Jochem van der Veer: let's unify them in framework and say you have a customer life cycle, or some other definition that you can use to structural these journeys.
Jochem van der Veer: And then you can look at a process to implement in all the different teams to work from inside to implementation, and that means different things to different organizations, the way they are already structured so.
Jochem van der Veer: Those two things together so really start to unify journeys and framework, instead of everything all over the place.
Jochem van der Veer: and bringing it back to one place is one thing, but the next thing is to set up a workflow right, you can capture insights create opportunities align on those and then start aligning I said agile teams.
Jochem van der Veer: The marketing teams What are they doing and who's doing what to improve our address these opportunities that's that's the workflow that her.
David Avrin: See sure how important to you, do you think and you guys do this for a living.
David Avrin: How important is the visual aspect.
David Avrin: For somebody in product development to know what somebody in shipping and receiving is doing to for somebody in sales and marketing to understand what with the billing department is doing what everybody else's role is in ensuring.
David Avrin: A smooth process journey transaction resolution all of the above.
Jochem van der Veer: yeah, so I think you can think about it in two ways that the visual aspect is one and the other one is like where are the.
Jochem van der Veer: dependencies in the organization, so if you have a journey that cuts across these departments, if you change something here on the Left that might be influencing some stuff on the right and.
Jochem van der Veer: If you're changing the interaction the top layer that the front stage of your application, for instance, but forget to involve your CRM or your database mark tear to know that there's changes coming.
Jochem van der Veer: And then system start to misaligned and you cause more problems than you sold, maybe for the customer is great for the business it sucks.
Jochem van der Veer: But that's one way of thinking about it, but the other thing, and I think that's that's a really cool thing that people take yourself seriously and start the manager and it's just they are by definition visual they show.
Jochem van der Veer: that's the first layer what a customer does, step by step, and what their emotions or her feelings.
Jochem van der Veer: Are when she or he is doing something and.
Jochem van der Veer: By making that visual but also making that into a system of journeys that are interconnected you take the organization by the hand, which is, by definition, today data driven.
Jochem van der Veer: And instead of thrusting those posters, which are flat you build it into a system that is visually connecting the dots but using all these years together, giving the trusted people like.
Jochem van der Veer: I can also trust this this more soft data around experience these contextual data about what people do, step by step, so video aspect in those larger organizations is very powerful for our decision making, because people just trust it better when it's in the system, rather than on a poster.
David Avrin: How much more complicated, is that journey today than it was 20 years ago I mean we certainly look at it from a street transaction whether it's through catalog rather is on site B2B or B2C.
David Avrin: Now, with with omni channel there's so many ways of connecting to an organization from a purchaser perspective but there's also an almost.
David Avrin: limitless number of scenarios that have to be accounted for that's the part for me that seems so profoundly revolutionary compared to yesteryear.
David Avrin: There are so many alternative scenarios and to be able to whether it's happening from a data perspective and an automation perspective or from a human perspective, how do we get our arms around all of that.
Jochem van der Veer: And that's that's the big The big question and one of the things that I like to think of is.
Jochem van der Veer: All those different almost personal flows journeys, if you will personalized but automated by data or based on your preferences, no matter, no matter how sophisticated the businesses that design step.
Jochem van der Veer: it's very hard for let's say Ai to really do this right and predict it, there are some models that are interesting that are coming up, but.
Jochem van der Veer: it's not that good we as people are way better at interpreting each other's feelings and understanding what experience is, or should be.
Jochem van der Veer: So what we see is it's a combination of both so, on the one hand, you have the personalization flows, it can be automated.
Jochem van der Veer: But that's almost like an end solution to a part of the customer journey.
Jochem van der Veer: But what we see now is that the teams that are responsible for influencing customer experience for delivering on the strategy, but or your work in marketing and product or in sales doesn't matter but.
Jochem van der Veer: Those people they need to be creative they need to understand Okay, so if the data tells us here's a problem or, this is not going in the right direction or here we have influenced to improve our say revenue or opera KPI.
Jochem van der Veer: They still want to look into hey what's the context of the customer, how can we be smart about the opportunity we see and what.
Jochem van der Veer: Creative for functional solutions can we put out and wrote that fit into.
Jochem van der Veer: US our fit us as a business, and I think that creative power is what makes us human and then you can maybe automate that it's smart tools to make it personalized but personalization of journeys is something else, then making a customer journey, for all your customers.
David Avrin: Sure sure how do we as Small Medium Enterprises, how do we balance.
David Avrin: Controlling that customer journey to the best that we can we have some greater level of predictability of flow and purchasing and revenue and cash flow right, how do we balance that with empowering our people to deviate from that path to please a customer, how do we balance.
David Avrin: Predictability with the importance of being able to customize be able to respond to being able to tailor and please that customer.
Jochem van der Veer: believe that the best way to do this, and we are, I think one of our smallest customers ourselves right we're a.
Jochem van der Veer: small team, but we use journeys in our day to day, every day and.
Jochem van der Veer: Not necessarily to serve all content or features to our customers, but more like an internal alignment tool to understand is what the customer goes through when, for instance, they find.
Jochem van der Veer: journey management solution like data for the first time, all the way till they say Okay, the DEMO was great can we get a few licenses in place, can we start exploring and we scale this up.
Jochem van der Veer: All those things are in that car buying journey and we use that not only to align internally with our sales team.
Jochem van der Veer: To say hey this is how we basically onboard new customers to sell we assist them in the buying journey.
Jochem van der Veer: But then you go into hey hang on a minute so marketing needs to understand what's going on, when people have made the decision to engage with us and.
Jochem van der Veer: Customer enablement in our case needs to understand what happened before we're going to start training to people internally.
Jochem van der Veer: And they have a revenue target, so we don't want to lose customers, obviously, but we also want to understand that we can scale within this company.
Jochem van der Veer: So that more people can start working with journeys can align their work against the journey so.
Jochem van der Veer: The revenue target for our enablement team is different than maybe a sales team has they just have a different quota for new business.
Jochem van der Veer: But they all work in sync with the buying journey and buying journey ends up being the first year journey of our let's say customer.
Jochem van der Veer: or teams are using creating and building their own journey management system using using our product so when you apply that to your business.
Jochem van der Veer: You can easily see that if you understand the key journeys of your customer they don't have to be that granular to give all the scenarios blend out, but you can just understand the basic journeys of.
Jochem van der Veer: Your business let's say if you're a B2B company, and you have a buying journey as well, like us.
Jochem van der Veer: and mapping that out and understanding what are the things that we do, and which step and who's responsible for that can be super valuable to understand.
Jochem van der Veer: Where the opportunities are in the first place, to create more revenue create more opportunities in your buying journey or even streamlined internal processes that happened to be misaligned.
David Avrin: You know, one of the things we're seeing is a lot of frustration from consumers whether it's B2B or B2C.
David Avrin: Dealing with companies that are.
David Avrin: fairly rigid.
David Avrin: In their business model, some of them have become very intentional in that customer journey trying to control what they can so they have a greater level of predictability right for outcome.
David Avrin: But, along with that we're also seeing some that are fairly rigid and that's when you get customers saying I felt like I was talking to a brick wall, where I keep going back into the same loop again, how do we as business owners and entrepreneurs my audience.
David Avrin: How do we fight that temptation to control too much and be seen as rigid in the eyes of our customers.
Jochem van der Veer: Like a like a question let's let's let's see how to answer that because there's a very important aspect in the rigidity of the journey, I think, consistency is very important that you are consistent because, as a company, whether you're an SMB in let's say.
Jochem van der Veer: Physical Labor or your are delivering trucks or you have a beautiful digital application.
Jochem van der Veer: That should not matter at some point, and I hope your audience already that the memo that if you are into the business of experience or in the business of feelings is, by definition, about people and you cannot be 100%.
Jochem van der Veer: Rigid in your approach, there has to be room for flexibility, and you have to give your people are team, the flexibility to be you so.
Jochem van der Veer: let's let's just put that there, but then think about rigidity our consistency in those journeys, because you don't want discuss them or to have experienced one and that customer to have experienced to.
Jochem van der Veer: Following the same path fitting into the same customer segment buying the same product basically trying to get the same experience in place and.
Jochem van der Veer: If you feel at that, then you are really in trouble, because then you cannot deliver anything on on spec right, not on on cx not on brand probably also for your business will fill.
Jochem van der Veer: But let's say you have that in place that consistency that will allow your team to be a little bit more flexible, so you have a standardized approach to how let's say you take a customer by the hand buying your product.
Jochem van der Veer: And the buying journey is very step by step, to find.
Jochem van der Veer: For young new sales people it's very important to follow the step by step, follow those rules to do the journey as intended right and to make sure that the customer gets the.
Jochem van der Veer: content or contract or everything, step by step, laid out and maybe you have some automated scripts that help you to make the customer successful in their journey.
Jochem van der Veer: Whatever that is for business consistency is key, but, as you will see, as people start to do more of it get more experience with it.
Jochem van der Veer: that's where the flexibility comes in, and then you can you know release the journey, a bit and start doing new things and understand hey.
Jochem van der Veer: This is a new customer segment or a new new market, we want to go after let's try something different there, but the base should be extremely consistent.
Jochem van der Veer: origin, if you will, to start working from, and I think that's maybe like more of a general observation in business, but the same goes for journey management.
David Avrin: yep why but we're seeing companies doing a poor job of that as things change right as things become more complex.
David Avrin: it's scary to empower those frontline workers to make decisions because they might make bad decisions right, so instead we.
David Avrin: prevent them from making any decision, which also precludes them from doing things that might please customer for fear they might do something wrong tell us about the company tell us about the do and the website, for that is, they do.io Is that correct.
Jochem van der Veer: that's right.
David Avrin: Okay, they do tell us about that company, what was the genesis for that.
David Avrin: And, and what specific problem, are you solving with with that SAS model that mechanism.
Jochem van der Veer: yeah so data wasn't intended to be a software company to when we started it my two co founders, and I so Martin was a strategist and Charles was an engineer, and I have a background in interaction design.
Jochem van der Veer: And we had a small team of people, and together we went in these large organizations to help them become customer centric and set up processes around design thinking human centered design.
Jochem van der Veer: Using journeys to network to really influence the whole organization to to be better at delivering the customer experience and.
Jochem van der Veer: that's where we struggled and saw that the journeys were delivering real value for the management team to stakeholders, the people that work with it.
Jochem van der Veer: But failed to get adopt that after the project was done and we were driving around the country with ease of post is brown papers in our trunks.
Jochem van der Veer: Even flew through different locations brought in a new browser and and making all these journeys, but it didn't work so.
Jochem van der Veer: We figured there must be some tools out there that can help us as business help our clients and our customers so.
Jochem van der Veer: there's a bunch of mapping tools out there, this was three years ago, so there was a button, there were a bunch of mapping tools out there, and today we would all in the whiteboard so it was just starting up pre pre covert this one.
Jochem van der Veer: was all just flat and one dimensional and visualizing information and yeah basically any designer can do that and.
Jochem van der Veer: There was no added value there for us so that's where we started to build our own prototype of what today is day two and we didn't even call it during management back down was just.
Jochem van der Veer: How to manage the journeys for our customers and want to so we could be more effective as a as a consulting business and then RON stop one of our earliest customers set hake and we licensed is can we roll it out globally, so that everyone can start working with these journeys.
Jochem van der Veer: And that was the original genesis of the company that we said okay.
Jochem van der Veer: let's say goodbye to consulting I was a tough decision let's build a product company, instead, and because we had strategy engineering and design in house and a small team of people around us.
Jochem van der Veer: could join us, or would like to would you would like to join us at that point we met to pivot and we started building what today is they didn't.
David Avrin: So this was originally a product that you use this was your proprietary process that you use to help your clients and an opportunity to product ties it to monetize it and to standardize it so tell us what it does.
David Avrin: And then, what the opportunity, because of course you've got different enterprise somebody who is in logistics or manufacturing is very different than somebody in healthcare.
David Avrin: or legal consulting, how do you make this broad enough to apply to a lot of other industries, but customizable enough to be effective and useful for for a variety of business types.
Jochem van der Veer: yeah so the common denominator here is that we have different verticals that we survived from banking to healthcare to Internet companies cloud native companies.
Jochem van der Veer: And what they have in common is that they have a team in place some habits around service design ux design or.
Jochem van der Veer: X customer experience management and they're not as an add on for customer support more like the holistic arm of the business that looks at at the end to end lifecycle.
Jochem van der Veer: And those teams typically already have all the things that I just mentioned right design thinking background.
Jochem van der Veer: They know how to work with journalists, they have that that in house right like you mentioned it's not like people are discovering the power of journey today.
Jochem van der Veer: But they struggle, because they have heaps of journeys all over the place.
Jochem van der Veer: And they want to standardize that and then align their digital tools bring their data and connected to the agile workflows they already have or the marketing teams and.
Jochem van der Veer: They start looking for a solution so that's the people that we seek to serve and help set up a journey framework so that's that's, the first thing we help you to do our software helps you to do say like.
Jochem van der Veer: What is that framework for you how many layers you have do you have hundreds of juries, how do you want to structure that.
Jochem van der Veer: recreating reality into your customer journey framework, what are your customer lifecycle or an ecosystem.
Jochem van der Veer: And then, once you have that defined, then you can look at different jury types, do you have to have service blueprints those kind of things and templates that you want to make.
Jochem van der Veer: And once that is defined they start working and bring in all the people of the organization, so the journey is the Center.
Jochem van der Veer: And then they start applying the methodology and the practice they already have in place.
Jochem van der Veer: mapping out the journey layering on what features, do we have communication we have, but what the sales to do.
Jochem van der Veer: Other teams do and then spot opportunities, and that is, I think the key to good journey management, where, for instance in product management, you have your pmi planning in the scaled agile world or.
Jochem van der Veer: Maybe you have a roadmap section, where you plan your features ahead in time but that's on the solution level we basically bring in a workflow where you can start prioritizing opportunities.
Jochem van der Veer: across the different divisions, you have across the different teams across different journeys and link them to her strategic goals and that becomes the base of innovation Where are you yeah start layering on the solutions.
David Avrin: Well, and that leads to my question, which is for those companies who take the time to do this and it's it's hard work, but it's important work and those who take the time.
David Avrin: and devote an effort organizationally into doing this kind of deep dive what advantages do they enjoy in the marketplace for those who do this successfully.
Jochem van der Veer: So, first of all it's just cost reduction you just standardize something that takes a lot of time and once you've had, and you have it up and running, it just says some like we met measured as a Coca Cola.
Jochem van der Veer: Hellenic did B2B arm of Coca Cola, for the first time they save a third of time of their employees per week.
Jochem van der Veer: So, not for every episode.
David Avrin: right but it's not working.
David Avrin: right but it's not just an issue of standardization it's also not just standardizing it's optimizing isn't it right.
Jochem van der Veer: Right it's also optimizing and that's that's the other side of the spectrum like if you can work as one influencing your customer experience.
Jochem van der Veer: it's so much easier to align to make decisions to be in sync all the time around the journeys, rather than to.
Jochem van der Veer: reiterate what projects are we going to do who's working on what Oh, we should maybe have a meeting about that no everything is in sync in the journey already.
Jochem van der Veer: And you can start working and layering on step by step, all the improvements that you're doing and continuously collaborate rather than one off or maybe go to a new whiteboard.
Jochem van der Veer: Environment and start up again nope the journeys they're all the improvements have been made or are being made, and you can work collaboratively in those journeys together and.
David Avrin: I was gonna ask when one small facet of that journey is adjusted is when you recognize there's a point of friction and you recognize, there is a.
David Avrin: challenge here a point of dissatisfaction you make that change is there something in the software that makes it either visible to all the other stakeholders or automatically.
David Avrin: makes adjustments to other things, recognizing the change that you made, and I think the analogy, I would use is, if you have all the formulas in your excel spreadsheet right and you change one number.
David Avrin: It changes everything else to reflect that or is, is it really just make it all visible, so that we can make the decisions of what else needs to be effective.
Jochem van der Veer: yeah so and in India excel the original creator doesn't get notified right it's just it's changed, you can check the change log and then maybe you are lucky to find what what changed.
Jochem van der Veer: We introduced the concept of journey managers, just like a product manager and in day two every journey has a manager during an owner basically so that person gets notified of all the changes that happened.
Jochem van der Veer: So imagine.
Jochem van der Veer: As a feature being implemented, and that is linked to an epic that is integrated into the journey linked to the opportunity that you've discovered around this pain point.
Jochem van der Veer: Then the journey and it gets notified, so it really helps to streamline the whole innovation process around improving that customer experience.
Jochem van der Veer: Now, ultimately, we want to bring into customer as well, so going to the front layer
Jochem van der Veer: and integrating with all the different marketing automation tools that are out there, so that we can also do this, a lot even continuously so whenever something changes and the customer experience changes the perception of people.
Jochem van der Veer: And the data flows back into the systems that also influences the journey but yeah one step at a time that's that's something we're building, but the internal process that is definitely aligned and people are getting notified using the journey system, the base to work with.
David Avrin: Well, I think it's all very cool and I think what's what's going to be really important is it has to keep growing has to keep changing because because we keep changing as consumers.
David Avrin: Our expectations that whole new generation of conveniences that have come about as a result of coven and beyond.
David Avrin: How we do business, how we expect to do business will change so admonishing organizations you've got to keep on top of this, and it needs to be a living document living process it's not a one time event.
David Avrin: yogananda viewer if people want to get in touch with you learn more about they do.io how do they get in touch with you.
Jochem van der Veer: The easiest way and i'm pretty approachable is to just find me on linkedin it's your phone phone here.
Jochem van der Veer: and find me there just send me a message and we'll connect or just send me an invite.
Jochem van der Veer: But if you're serious about changing the way your organization works and you really believe that journey centric workflows are the future of your business.
Jochem van der Veer: Go today to that I oh make an account it's free, and let me know then i'll be there to help you make your first steps and i'll see you on that other side.
David Avrin: girl, and we will put in the show notes here for this podcast episode the spelling of all the names and everything else, and all the contact information.
David Avrin: yoakam I see I gotta I gotta get the pronunciation right you go home Ben de vere, thank you for.
David Avrin: US or take some time hanging out with us for a second we'll talk for a brief moment, on the other side of that you can pick up a copy of my new book.
David Avrin: The morning huddle powerful customer experience conversations to wake you up and shake you up and win more business available, like all of my books on Amazon.
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David Avrin: that's it, I'm David Avrin. Be good thanks.