Dr. Mary Kelly interview - future proofing your leadership
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Everyone's talking about how customers have changed, and so business, of course, needs to change as well. And that starts at the top from the CEO or the owner, all the way down through middle management. Well, my guest today is commander Mary Kelly. Not only has she led teams at the highest levels of business and the military but she's an expert on leading future teams. Additionally, she's a prolific author, military academy professor, hall of fame speaker, and one of my favorite people on the planet. We're talking future-proofing your organization by future-proofing your leadership. It's David Avrin on the customer experience advantage podcast back in 20 seconds.
David Avrin: You know this is a good day to talk leadership, you know they're these podcasts are a bit evergreen of course they're there, hopefully, good for years to go.
David Avrin: So much going on in the world in the world of business in the world of politics and military and leadership means a lot of things to a lot of different people Let me read the quick.
David Avrin: Bio for for Mary Kelly, and it will say hi officially Mary is a graduate of the United States naval Academy.
David Avrin: spent over 20 years on active duty and intelligence and logistics, thank you for your service she retired from the navy as a commander she's got a master's degree in history, a master's degree in economics and a PhD in.
David Avrin: Economics as well, very overeducated but she is beyond brilliant over 20 years combined experience teaching at both the naval academy at Hawaii Pacific university she's taught economics finance.
David Avrin: History and management extensive experience all aspects of business she's the author of 15 books.
David Avrin: i've read several of those about business and economics her most recent book.
David Avrin: Is five minutes per day 52 weeks to a better business and the great book, who comes next succession leadership planning made easy she's been quoted Wall Street Journal money magazine mensa men's magazine thousands of additional.
David Avrin: media outlets there's 19 more pages of accolades for Dr Mary Kelly, but we'll just say thank you for joining us on the show today.
Mary Kelly: that's a lovely introduction and you know your audience doesn't care about that at all.
Mary Kelly: What they want to know is, do we have things today that will make a difference for their business moving into the future.
Mary Kelly: And that's what a lot of my leaders are struggling with right now is what do they need to be paying attention to what are the newest trends, what can they not pay attention to and how do we manage the craziness of the uncertainty that we're all looking at right now.
David Avrin: But here's the question what's the catalyst, you know everybody's struggling with different things, but there has to be in most cases, some catalyst that says, I need help with this.
David Avrin: Is is it is, it is that a challenge with competitors, is it an internal challenge with employees for those who reach out to you from a consulting perspective from.
David Avrin: The keynote speaking, that you do worked with organizations, what are they experiencing that says, we need to bring in an expert on this.
Mary Kelly: By lot of times, as you know, David I get brought in, because people are losing their losing their employees.
Mary Kelly: they're losing market share.
Mary Kelly: they're losing their their market.
Mary Kelly: place where they were that once revered organization that nobody could touch or they're losing their executives.
Mary Kelly: So when they start to lose either people or market share or product dominance that's when they call me because a lot of times it's not.
Mary Kelly: it's not always a bad thing when your product when your products are shifting that's not necessarily a bad thing if you're giving.
Mary Kelly: A mark here in one area to do something else.
Mary Kelly: But they call me because of a sense of loss and sometimes that sense of loss is there wondering if they're going in the right direction, am I doing things right and I.
Mary Kelly: i'm feeling really overwhelmed with everything i'm having to deal with and managing everybody else's issues and am I doing it right.
David Avrin: And I would assume in many cases it's taking them off task, or at least what their perception of their tasks should be, but I like what you said before it's sometimes it's it's opportunity.
David Avrin: And just being able to make sure that the organization is well positioned for that opportunity we've seen a lot of those changes during Kobe as things have changed and we're emerging into sort of a new marketplace.
David Avrin: What is it as we talk about sort of future proofing what leaders get wrong, I mean my God we've been talking about this for for 4050 years.
David Avrin: Is is it that what worked 10 years ago doesn't work today, or is it that there's a whole new crop of leaders is probably all of the above, who just didn't grow up with these kinds of skills.
Mary Kelly: Well, until the you know what happened and I try really hard not to name that which shall not be named.
Mary Kelly: Kevin i'm going to say this, and this is going to be very controversial I don't mean it that way, but.
Mary Kelly: We kind of needed a wake up call, we needed something to back us in the head and go hey pay attention because we have this lovely 10 year span of economic growth and it just wasn't that hard to do pretty well, we were doing fine we're doing it was good.
Mary Kelly: It was fun.
Mary Kelly: But all of a sudden, do you know what hit and it took a little spotlight, and it put it right on our businesses.
Mary Kelly: And all of a sudden, you started to see the cracks in the Foundation you started to see areas where before it was good, it was fine, but it wasn't great but we're getting by because the.
Mary Kelly: status quo was frankly good enough.
Mary Kelly: And it's not anymore and that's why the you know what was kind of a good thing for our businesses, because it made us look very hard at every single thing everything's on the table and everything is on the table for change.
Mary Kelly: Our leaders look our leaders move really quickly into the new reality so they're like got it.
Mary Kelly: got it, you know we can put a bandaid fixed on it, but that's not good enough Okay, we can do this, but we're going to have to make changes.
Mary Kelly: A lot of this is about embracing the change that we know needed to happen, but we kind of didn't want to and our people didn't want to this crisis, gave us the urgency we needed to make the changes we needed to move into the future we're going to be successful.
David Avrin: yeah but you know being successful and surviving during that which will not be named.
David Avrin: I think, in many cases exposed our vulnerabilities right and not every business model, I mean if you did some manufacturing and you were able to use the p word and and pivot into creating.
David Avrin: You know, clear lucite barriers, you did pretty well right for a time, but that that.
David Avrin: momentary shift that reasonable accommodation didn't necessarily set people up for successful future, what is it for those who are in the process we're realizing that we really are in a new reality.
David Avrin: what's your message, what do they need to do now that's different than what they had to do 20 years ago.
Mary Kelly: A few things the lucite plastic things that was a band aid that was a very short term fix or of fairly short term problem haynes went from making underwear to making masks good for them again a short term problem if I never buy another mask again i'm gonna be really, really happy.
Mary Kelly: I did.
Mary Kelly: not play not planning on robbing a bank not billy the kid don't work in a hospital on good if I never have to buy another mask however they responded very quickly to what the changing market needs were.
Mary Kelly: And I think that's a great lesson for the rest of us, what are we doing to make sure that we're identifying the changing needs of our current and future customers and you know this, I mean you, you.
Mary Kelly: You talk to people all the time about what their customers need and want and what your Customers need and want and what you're actually delivering is oftentimes a very different value.
Mary Kelly: yeah, as you know, so we have to do is as leaders, we have to look at the external forces that we didn't maybe have to pay attention to a few years ago.
Mary Kelly: And we have to look at the extra mile shocks things that we can't control our supply chain is delayed there's 107 ships right now doing donuts off the coast of Los Angeles.
Mary Kelly: But there's 250 ships up the coast of Shanghai they can't get in to get things offloaded to bring stuff over so we've got this big shipping.
Mary Kelly: literally a shipping block that's happening right now that's going to take another year to fix so if that's the case.
Mary Kelly: What do we need to do to take care of our customers, and this is where the one of the big questions, I want to ask my leaders to think about is, what are we doing to take care of our customers.
Mary Kelly: it's not just sell them stuff it's not just get the stuff off the shelves and into their hands and take the money.
Mary Kelly: it's how are we taking care of them so that they're getting the actual products and services they need when they need them from the right people instead of I don't know, I was just at a large store.
Mary Kelly: That ends in March, recently, and they said, did you find everything you need it.
Mary Kelly: Well, I didn't but it's not like i'm going to tell the cashier will know you guys were out of this, and this, and this because they're going to go oh like there's nothing they can do about it, so why bother answering.
Mary Kelly: asking you please.
David Avrin: Please writing things down as part of the.
Mary Kelly: script no and I said so I smile nicely and said yes now so we're creating this this surreal place where nobody's actually nobody's giving me what I really wanted, I would have cheerfully spend another hundred.
Mary Kelly: dollars if they had the stuff that I wanted, but there was no good mechanism.
Mary Kelly: For me to convey that to the lovely cashier who looked like he'd been working there for about three days.
Mary Kelly: And he was completely baffled by half the things that I was purchasing anyway, so you know that's part of the aspect of it is we've got to make sure that we are delivering not just the things that our customers need now.
Mary Kelly: But that our customers need moving into the future, and that means making sure we understand our target demographics, making sure we understand what we are differentiating ourselves by doing, where do we want to be positioning ourselves for the future of the market.
David Avrin: So an organizational level on a more macro level like we understand that we know who we're serving we try and.
David Avrin: let's go a little more micro talk to me about about both lessons and behavior from leaders and those who they lead.
David Avrin: To help them bridge that gap, you know we can have training manuals we can have broad policies, what are some of the behavioral challenges that are really stymieing leaders today a.
Mary Kelly: lot of people right now are being driven by fear.
Mary Kelly: And they are fearful that there are people leaving them and they won't be able to replace them.
Mary Kelly: As a result, they're hiring anybody, they can to just fill the place and that is becoming a disaster because.
Mary Kelly: That person is now having frontline experiences with your customers and they're terrible what they're doing.
Mary Kelly: And that means they're your customers are going to go someplace else because there are options are still options.
Mary Kelly: they're being driven by fear because they're not sure if they if the strategy, they had in place a year ago is applicable now and they haven't really looked at it.
Mary Kelly: And they're driven by fear because they're hoping that what they're doing is going to make a difference.
Mary Kelly: And, in many cases that hope is not a very good strategy either, so I think many leaders are operating by fear they're wondering if their boards of directors are going to replace them as we see boards of directors flying out of businesses.
Mary Kelly: And Left and Right and then, when you know if you look at starbucks they brought back Howard Schultz well wait a second.
Mary Kelly: I don't even remember how long ago he retired, but it was a while ago and they brought him back because they didn't have anybody else who could step up That to me is a leadership failure, not just.
David Avrin: A succession problem too isn't it.
Mary Kelly: And a succession problem.
David Avrin: Absolutely, we can talk about that too.
David Avrin: excited we have a great book on that talk to me about about when you were talking about sort of the frontline workers not being prepared bad service.
David Avrin: or people just you know with any warm body thing, are they are, they are reluctant to hold them accountable to standards for fear they're going to say screw this and and they're gone.
Mary Kelly: And then.
David Avrin: What happens talk to me about the cascading effect from that.
Mary Kelly: Absolutely so first off it isn't accountability problem, so this is like you getting a brand new puppy awake or kitten.
Mary Kelly: And you let that brand new little kitten like chew on your head and chew on your face and chew on your clothes, because it's so terribly cute well, then that kit and grows up to be a cat who still thinks it's okay to chew on your clothes it's not okay.
Mary Kelly: So.
Mary Kelly: People are the same way you got to hold them accountable for the behaviors you want, and that means setting expectations and holding people accountable.
Mary Kelly: And here's one of the problems.
Mary Kelly: People are so fearful about people leaving them that they're not holding people accountable as a result, your top talent.
Mary Kelly: is going wait a second you're not holding Joe Bob accountable i'm doing all the work over here you're not holding them accountable i'm only getting paid $2 more an hour they're not doing anything.
David Avrin: everybody's watching.
Mary Kelly: And everybody's watching so your top talent, a lot of people say, well, I try to treat everybody equally it's patently stupid if you're treating your top talent, the same as you're treating your bottom talent.
Mary Kelly: Your top talent, is going to leave you, and they should you deserve that you're not holding people accountable so other people who do hold themselves accountable, who are your great workers they're going to find better places to work they're going to be more.
Mary Kelly: appreciated more respected more listen to and more valued.
Mary Kelly: other places, so when you're operating by fear it means you're probably not holding everybody accountable and you need to so.
Mary Kelly: Imagine that a puppy imagine it's a pitbull and you're not holding that pitbull puppy accountable now you got an 80 pound dog who thinks it's okay to chew on your your wife shoes that's not cool.
Mary Kelly: She wouldn't be happy about that so we've got to have an accountability system in place, but the other part of that is.
Mary Kelly: When we bring people in, we have to teach them, we have to train and we have to onboard them and, most of us onboard.
Mary Kelly: In a horrible manner, we take excited people who are excited to work in our mechanic shop or in our salon or in our store.
Mary Kelly: And then we put them through two weeks of absolutely miserable onboarding taught by people who are bad at teaching things and we take these boat very motivated people and we turn them into people who just say you know what i'm just here to get a paycheck.
Mary Kelly: And we not D motivated them before we've even put them out on the floor.
Mary Kelly: So a few things we've got to change how we how we bring people in we've got to change how we hold people accountable and we've got a.
Mary Kelly: Look at our current employees and say wait a second was the last time they got some really great training when was the last time.
Mary Kelly: They got that shot in the arm that they need when was the last time we let them know how important they are to this organization.
Mary Kelly: And you have to look at it from a very holistic perspective on a macro level, but then it's a very individual perspective on a micro level with that individual person because leadership is individual.
Mary Kelly: The same motivation that works for you doesn't work for me and vice versa, so as leaders.
Mary Kelly: we've got to take a really big look and a hard look at how we're leading our people how we're leading our teams what our teams are expecting from us what we're expecting from our teams.
Mary Kelly: And how we are holding our people as well, which includes our managers accountable for getting things done and David I know you know this statistic but 50% of managers have had zero managerial training and then we wonder why they fail.
David Avrin: Right so Peter principle they got elevated to a place where they're no longer competent I don't want to insult leaders, but, but we are coming out of crisis mode.
David Avrin: And we have to be much, much more intentional, you talked about you know week long excruciating onboarding process for those that do that.
David Avrin: How many don't how many young people say listen it's really easy just treat people the way you want to be treated really is that easy take it take us back a little bit.
David Avrin: With your career 20 years in in the US navy retired as a commander tell us about what you've learned during that time and how you apply that.
David Avrin: In your work today the lessons that you learned how it applies to business talk about your foundation and how that has manifest itself in your current thinking.
Mary Kelly: great thing about the military is that we take leadership very, very seriously leadership is not an afterthought for us.
Mary Kelly: At the naval Academy.
Mary Kelly: Your very first year you start learning leadership and you get to learn from some of the best military leaders who have ever been on the planet.
Mary Kelly: Both historically and present day, and then you get in charge and people right away, and you realize.
Mary Kelly: wow do I have a lot to learn, and many of my leaders my senior leaders say well i've been doing this for 30 years I say, and you know what it's like going to the gym.
Mary Kelly: When you're going to the gym you still have to go to the gym because if you don't go to the gym you're not staying the same you're getting worse.
Mary Kelly: we've got to be constantly looking at the leadership approaches to figure out how we're getting better every single day and the military taught me that they also taught me that.
Mary Kelly: I don't lead in a way that I need I need to lead in a way that works for my people and each one of my people is individual so when you have 380 people.
Mary Kelly: Each one of those people needs a little bit different leadership from you at different times.
Mary Kelly: And you've got to be the one who alters you don't expect them to alter to fit your leadership model, you have to adjust to fit their motivation and what's important to them.
Mary Kelly: And so, some people you don't you don't need to talk to him very often you're like David you got this yep yep got it got it.
Mary Kelly: Other days that's David so how's everything going for you today what's going on is there, something we should know about how they're you know what how'd you do with Mrs Smith and Mrs Jones what does that look like.
Mary Kelly: David might need more words on Monday, David doesn't need any words on Friday individual leadership is exactly that it's individual one of the exercises I do with teams is I asked people.
Mary Kelly: To put a great leaders initials at the top of the page, so people go oh Martin Luther King or Nelson Mandela Abraham Lincoln or whoever.
Mary Kelly: And that's a great so write down leadership characteristics that they embodied so they write down leadership characteristics.
Mary Kelly: And then I say Okay, so how many of those leadership characteristics are what you're looking for in your leader.
Mary Kelly: Almost all of them see we tend to like the leadership characteristics of what works for us.
Mary Kelly: But that's not what necessarily works for the rest of our team, and then you say okay so look at the list of the person next to you and it's a totally different list of characteristics.
Mary Kelly: Because we tend to look for the leadership characteristics that work for us, and those are the things that we tend to promote but that may not be what our people need from us and that's where a lot of leaders I think struggle.
David Avrin: And I think that's also it gives rise to a lot of the personality profiles and the assessments as well, to help us understand people differently, my father used to always say.
David Avrin: That we buy birthday presents that we like for other people, this is so cool you'll love it.
David Avrin: and real love and we know that in our romantic relationships, of course, is when you get something for them that you know that they're going to love, whether or not you love it or not, my wife loves watching.
David Avrin: bigfoot shows on TV not my thing she thinks that's great and hilarious I would get her something fun along those lines.
David Avrin: How do leaders justify and is that some of the pushback you get like how much time do I have I got 300 people in my under my command or in my retail outlet or something else how what are some specific tactics that you teach to help them understand them on a deeper level individually.
Mary Kelly: Part of that is making sure you, you know your people well enough to know what motivates them.
Mary Kelly: Do you know you know their partners names, do you know if they've got kids do know what kind of dog they have Do you know what job they had before this Do you know what job they're going for Do you know where they would like to learn more about the organization, do you know.
Mary Kelly: You know you're currently working in accounting, but you really want to work in marketing do we have a plan in place for you to do that.
Mary Kelly: Look at look at the job from their perspective, and when you show them that you're looking at it from their perspective and you're crafting their future with them, one of the things that.
Mary Kelly: In the military, a lot of our.
Mary Kelly: promotions are sort of accidental some people, probably are more intentional about it.
Mary Kelly: I was never that smart.
Mary Kelly: But nobody ever sat down and said, you know hey it's in Kelly hey lieutenant Kelly hey commander Kelly, you know where do you see your your career going nobody ever asked me that question.
Mary Kelly: Of and you think that would be a good question to ask, so a lot of it is where do you see your career going where do you see your role and responsibility changing and for some people.
Mary Kelly: I had one guy working for me and I said hey you know you've you've already done all these other things you do you feel like you're stuck in this job and he looked at me he goes I.
Mary Kelly: need to tell you something right now I like this job i've already done all those other jobs i've already had people working for me I don't want that anymore.
Mary Kelly: i'm very happy I am a first line customer facing person, and I do not want to change.
Mary Kelly: I like to show up every day do my job take care of my people you never have to worry about me, I do not want to be promoted, I don't want the hassle I don't want the responsibility.
Mary Kelly: i'm happy and I was like oh okay great check that one off the list I said well you let me know if that changes here.
David Avrin: No, and if you hadn't asked.
David Avrin: Correct that kind of because I we make an assumption, knowing that everybody wants to move up I am I lead CEO Roundtable group says, you know for years.
David Avrin: And I learned very early that don't make an assumption of what they the individual Members, the leaders of the organization's what constituted success for them, you know, for some, it was growth.
David Avrin: I assumed, it was inevitable everybody wanted to grow some people's success means I take every Friday off, and I can play golf.
David Avrin: Or take my granddaughter to school in the morning, or something like that, so it is part of that that individual conversation we're talking to Dr Mary Kelly commander.
David Avrin: Mary Kelly about about leadership let's pivot real quickly to the whole idea of future future teams future proofing your teams, I know that's one of the subjects, one of the many subjects that you speak about when you work with organizations, what does that mean.
Mary Kelly: The future proofing your team means looking to the future, to figure out.
Mary Kelly: What you can control what you can't you cannot control external shocks you can't control a national pandemic.
Mary Kelly: You can't control Russia invading Ukraine you can't control a whole you can't control what will Smith, is going to do on a stage you can't control that so you don't think nobody can you focus on the things you can impact you.
Mary Kelly: can control, you can influence.
Mary Kelly: And you ask yourself questions do I have control over this can I influence this can I help other people if I get involved, and if he answers to those things are no, then you don't waste your time on that a lot of my leaders are very they've gotten distracted.
Mary Kelly: And part of my job is to help them focus on doing what's most important to prioritizing the things that aren't hand and then strategizing on where they need to go in the future.
Mary Kelly: What market share, do you want to capture who do you really want to serve and then are your team's prepared to do that, and if not, why not.
Mary Kelly: Many of our teams have been told you know go home stay home we'll call you when we want you back and many people are pushing back and coming back and here's a few reasons why.
Mary Kelly: 19% of remote workers they didn't tell you, but they're moonlighting, they have another full time job, and while i'm on a zoom call with you, almost want to zoom call with somebody else in another meeting and that's why i've got my camera off because.
Mary Kelly: i'm double dipping 19% This is why our Labor force participation rate numbers are a little bit skewed or whether the data what the data looks like.
Mary Kelly: And they don't want to come back to work, because they don't want you to know that they're actually working for another company, at the same time, so there's a little bit of that.
Mary Kelly: Part of your job is to make sure that your teams.
Mary Kelly: Are all in that they've got that buy in that they are subscribing to and they understand the principal agent problem that is an agent of the principal, which is the organization.
Mary Kelly: They act like an owner they think like an owner and they are focused on the best interest of the organization and the people they serve.
Mary Kelly: And the people who work there it's not i'm a cog in the wheel and what I do doesn't matter.
Mary Kelly: And when people feel that way or believe that way or i'm just a number and it doesn't matter then they think what they do doesn't matter.
Mary Kelly: i'll give you a real world example of that was working with a landscaping company.
Mary Kelly: And I said so what time do we get people out on the road in the morning and they said seven I said great I said so what time does everybody show up, they said six.
Mary Kelly: I said okay So what are we doing between six and seven what's taking so long to get everybody in the trucks on the road.
Mary Kelly: And they said well we're getting the vehicles ready, I said okay hang on so I showed up at six o'clock.
Mary Kelly: You know what I saw I saw hundred 80 people sitting around their breakfast they're on their phone they're playing cards are smoking cigarettes.
Mary Kelly: i'm like what are we doing well they're sitting around waiting for the trucks to get ready well how many people, does it take to get trucks ready 17 well why do we have 180 people sitting around well to make sure they're here well what we just talked them is their time doesn't matter.
Mary Kelly: That we don't care about their time.
Mary Kelly: And we're going to pay them to do nothing in the problem there isn't they get the idea that their time doesn't matter what they do doesn't matter so when they get on a job site.
Mary Kelly: They don't think anything about sitting in the truck for an extra half an hour having lunch checking their Facebook page playing a video game, because their time doesn't matter.
Mary Kelly: And the military kind of taught me this you know we all learned to March and the whole purpose of marching is not to actually learn your left and your right.
Mary Kelly: It is to create situational awareness so that you're moving as one thinking is one and mindful of the people around you.
Mary Kelly: But a lot of people think well i'm in the middle of the pack and it doesn't matter until you look at it from the outside, and you can see that it does matter that that those people are off.
Mary Kelly: And once we teach people that they don't matter what they do doesn't matter that is exactly what we're going to.
Mary Kelly: Get and I think, unfortunately, in an effort to be sort of empathetic but also because some leaders were afraid to make hard decisions leaders have not hold people accountable, and so our people have learned they don't really matter what they do doesn't matter, so why should they bother.
David Avrin: Right it's like our kids we learn right away, so we teach people how to treat us or or they say the behavior that's recognized and rewarded is the behavior that's repeated.
David Avrin: And if slacking off is rewarded or tolerated than that as well once again talking to Dr commander Mary Kelly what we could talk all day is, let me ask you this, one last thing.
David Avrin: Is this how much change can you affect in a presentation is it about the wake up call the kick in the butt the.
David Avrin: The this the situational awareness and the recognition or is it really requires sort of an ongoing conversation.
Mary Kelly: I view the talks that you and I get to do, David as kind of a start a really good start.
Mary Kelly: And sometimes people just take that one hour two hours and they can take it back to their team.
Mary Kelly: And they take the slide deck and they use it over and over and then it has this wonderful cascading effect other people need tweaks more often.
Mary Kelly: So I live to do, and you do it to you know, maybe a follow up webinar 90 days later, just kind of how you doing keep the momentum going keep that shot me arm, because people need that people say well you know.
Mary Kelly: I don't necessarily need motivation, every day, but you need reminders every day, I have a yellow sticky note on my computer that says drink water, we all know, to drink water but I need the reminders so that I constantly do it.
Mary Kelly: And that's, I think, where we come in, we are the constant reminders so somebody doesn't have to necessarily talk to me every day to remember some of the principles that we talked about.
Mary Kelly: But if they see my book on their bookshelf they go Oh, you know what maybe I need to maybe I need to go talk to my people, maybe I need to be looking at my teams, maybe I need to be doing an onboarding job so.
Mary Kelly: I rely on the fact that our brains are really powerful and that we do have these subliminal and subconscious things going all the time, so I love the idea that we get brought in for conferences and events, and then I love it when those get translated into corporate training.
Mary Kelly: Opportunities and longer relationships.
David Avrin: Right until you do I mean you go there and actually work deeper with their teams and full day and beyond, yes.
Mary Kelly: Absolutely like you do okay.
David Avrin: i'm plugging into because I already knew the answer that but I know damn good you are at that.
David Avrin: And as great as she is as a speaker and cheese I unexpectedly.
David Avrin: hilarious and great energy and brilliant brilliant brilliant when she gets down to it, hold on I mean it is it's intense and it's valuable and it's memorable probably because it's so brilliant and intense.
David Avrin: But talk about keeping an organization engaged for hours on end or days on end nobody better Mary Kelly, if people want to get in touch with you how do they find you.
Mary Kelly: My website is productive leaders calm i'm Mary at productive leaders.com and if they want my free stuff it's productive leaders calm forward slash free and there's a bunch of my best five minutes and.
Mary Kelly: Things like that and it's just free for y'all spokes just to go get it, and thanks so much for the very kind words and the shameless plug, as you know.
Mary Kelly: We get to do.
David Avrin: A lot of great resources, we will put some of those in the show notes as well, but a productive leaders calm Mary Kelly hang on we're going to talk really quickly afterwards.
David Avrin: Quick closing my own self promotion, you can pick up a copy of my new book.
David Avrin: The morning huddle powerful customer experience conversations to wake you up and shake you up and win more business available everywhere, in fact, all of my books are available on Amazon COM.
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David Avrin: that's it thanks for tuning into the customer experience advantage podcast remember to leave a comment big thanks to my guest Dr Mary Kelly i'm David Avrin be good.