Neal Foard interview - The Secret to viral storytelling
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Who is your customer or client? I'm not talking about your demographically niche target market. But who the person, the people on the other side of the transaction, the human beings, the good people with rich, meaningful lives or profound struggles, who you encounter and hope to engage in business and hope to build relationships with? Well, my guest today is a master of the human condition. You might have seen Neal Foard relay one of his inspirational stories or Life lessons online. And today we are going to explore the strategy and methodology behind the Internet sensation that is Neal Foard.
David Avrin: and, thanks to welcome to the white customers, leave Podcast today.
David Avrin: Today is a treat you do not I? If honestly, if you have a chance to watch the video version of this. Just go to my website or go to go to Youtube Channel. Of course we're on all the other podcast platforms as well. But today I I have the great privilege of of talking with my man. Crush! I am such a big fan of Neil Ford. advertising genius. I mean what a great background Everything else. I'll give you a quick introduction minute. But a lot of people might know him from his Internet videos and and the spelling of his name. Even if you're starting to listen to this or watch it.
David Avrin: And you have a second, you can pause it, or you can go online and take a look, Neil, any Al and it's F. O. Ard and i'm sure you've seen it. I'm sure it's a video that somebody has passed along to you because it spoke to them something about
David Avrin: not only the stories themselves we know so many people are talking about the value of stories. But there's a mannerism. There's a message. There's a kindness and a warmth behind this that has earned him a legion of fans. We're going to talk about that more today. Let me do a quick formal
David Avrin: introduction. Neil Ford has spent 25 years in advertising and marketing, creating award-winning campaigns for global brands like Toyota heard of them. Budweiser Sony is the author of an innovative Creator Coaching series. He was named Worldwide director of creative learning for global advertising. Juggernaut, Sachi and Sachi Neil has been charged with conceiving effective brand experiences that help brands treat customers
David Avrin: like friends instead of targets. Beautifully said Most recently he gave a following on social media for his inspirational videos about the kindness of everyday people. He has been called a modern sage by me, and a welcome messenger for a tired and cynical world. Neil Ford! Welcome to the show.
David Avrin: hey? Thank you, David. It's such a pleasure to be on with you absolutely. This is what a great connection we've we've connected online before. But it's the first time we've had a chance to have that that conversation and in person. I'm. I'm. I'm. Interested in having a conversation to understand sort of the genesis of 150
David Avrin: where you are today, because it's easy to just jump to the success of the the storytelling and the things that you've done online. We're going to delve a little bit more. But tell me a little bit more about your background. So I understand. Where did? Where was the wisdom born? Where was the perspective that drove your current approach?
David Avrin: marinated
Neal Foard: My career was in advertising and marketing, but I really didn't start out that way. I I left high school and didn't get to college right away, and I wound up working on a factory, and you know, I I developed a kind of humility from that.
Neal Foard: there was a way back when when I was a kid. Oakland
Neal Foard: relative to San Francisco, had a real chip on its shoulder, because San Francisco was where all the cool people were, and was all the cool stuff was happening, and I remember hearing once from a San Francisco who heard I was from Oakland, and he said, You know what the best thing about Oakland is
Neal Foard: the view of San Francisco.
Neal Foard: and
Neal Foard: we carried around this kind of chip, and I discovered that I had that same chip before I went off to college. You know that you develop what you're You're feeling like, you know
Neal Foard: the I don't think the working guy gets enough respect. And then, when I was I got out of college I did the same thing. I wound up on a couple of blue collar jobs working on a lumber yard, and and doing some demolition, and what what that did for me was.
Neal Foard: Whenever I heard the word consumer.
Neal Foard: I thought to myself, what a
Neal Foard: what a pompous
Neal Foard: phrase
Neal Foard: on the other end of every purchase as a human being. This, by the way, David, is why i'm so stoked to be talking to you, and how well, how old were you at the time? Give me a time Reference? Well, I mean like, you know, when I first started out, and I got that high school I would have been about 17, and then and then, when I got out of college I was
Neal Foard: 21. It's a profound observation for a young person. Well, I you know, I I think i'm hypersensitive like in a bad way, like I got real thin skin about critiques and so forth. But anyway, nevertheless, what what happened was I I used to. I can't stand bullies.
Neal Foard: and the first thing that a bully doesn't realize is there's a human being on the other end of their torment.
Neal Foard: and
Neal Foard: and it struck me that the advertising industry was very much like that where they didn't have sufficient respect for the people they were talking to.
Neal Foard: And.
Neal Foard: as we're saying before, you seem to really have your finger on something. Okay, because you you're saying, look let's let's think of these people as having a relationship with us. You know. I'll give you one thing that struck me when I was working on an heiser bush business.
Neal Foard: We walked into the St. Louis headquarters one day, and on in big brass letters on their wall. They had this marvelous motto, and it was
Neal Foard: making friends is our business.
Neal Foard: and I thought, oh, I will never see
Neal Foard: a corporate model that good ever again. You just think about it. I go making friends is our business. That is a good business to be in
Neal Foard: and it struck me that any kind of communication for any product.
Neal Foard: whether it's a car, or or a banking service, or insurance, or whatever it should have as its first obligation. What is it going to take to turn this person
Neal Foard: into a friend
Neal Foard: like I want them to. Whenever they think of me. I want them to think first. Wow! I'm glad I know them.
Neal Foard: and not every business does that they don't
Neal Foard: walk into every transaction, thinking, what's it going to take to turn this person into a friend? You know you You might have had this experience. You go to an airline, or you go to a hotel.
Neal Foard: and there's something about that person at the hotel. They just have the neck right. They just make you feel welcome. So I was standing at a Ritz Carlton, and they're incredibly professional, but I also stayed not a week later in one of those little courtyard by Marriotts.
Neal Foard: and this gal behind the counter was just so frisky and funny
Neal Foard: and so
Neal Foard: keen to remember what I liked.
Neal Foard: so that the next time I saw her she would be able to do it. You know better. I just thought, Wow.
Neal Foard: I don't know who got hold of her and trained her. Or maybe she just came out of the factory this way.
Neal Foard: But I feel, and you know the Ritz is so famous for its customer service. Right, of course, but this Gail had it. She had that magic, and you know it made me feel as good about the courtyard by Marriott as I felt him. The it's Carlton, which is superb.
David Avrin: you know, and individuals can do that. But let me get through it something back, because you and I both work with with sales, professionals.
David Avrin: representatives from organization, and they always
David Avrin: paired the lines that for us it's about the relationship. They don't use the word friendship, but they they want to. They want to build a relationship. But what's interesting is, conversely, I don't see a lot of of
David Avrin: ere
David Avrin: they'll appreciate a relation, but they're not looking for a relationship. They're looking for something to meet a need. And so I see a big disconnect right there. They appreciate relationship. I i'll talk to business owners and leaders, and i'll say, what's your what's your competitive advantage? What your secret sauce? And they'll say it's this. It's the relationship. And I said, No, that's a that's a retention tool.
David Avrin: right? What's your attraction? What is it that because I think they they don't use the word friendship. They see a relationship, but they want it because they want a long term transaction.
Neal Foard: right?
David Avrin: And so it can give me your perspective on on that disconnect because you have that epiphany at a young age. All sales. People talk about it, but i'm not sure that they understand what the customers are really looking for. Well, i'll give you one slant on it, which is, I had a lot of experience working on the Toyota brand.
Neal Foard: and I started out as a very young guy working on Toyota, and I had a kind of a snob
Neal Foard: opinion about it, which is that they weren't very exciting. They're much. They're much cooler now, but back then it was pretty much, you know. It was the toyota corolla. You know what I mean. It's like. It was a ref, and they're fing fantastic cars. But anyway, back then I sort of looked down my nose at it.
Neal Foard: and because it wasn't exciting.
Neal Foard: But over time I started to. Really.
Neal Foard: I started to really respect where it was coming from, like a vehicle like that which was. They were so proud of the fact that when you bought one of these things it was going to be so reliable, so trouble-free. So dependable, you'd come, to think of it almost like a horse like you'd fall in love with it
Neal Foard: because it never let you down. And
Neal Foard: the mindset of Toyota was so long term like they would. I'll give you an example of what I mean by their the whole corporation, the way they would go long term. They have this fantastic factory in San Antonio, Texas. It's gorgeous, and it is, and it is, it turns out, fantastic trucks. They make pretty much all the trucks that they sell in America. In America. They make them in San Antonio.
Neal Foard: the tundra, and Tacoma, and so on. And
Neal Foard: they make it a point that whatever community they go into, they are, that community is way better off than if they hadn't come in. One small example being
Neal Foard: the water that goes into the San Antonio plant
Neal Foard: comes out cleaner.
Neal Foard: Then it went in.
Neal Foard: and because they got to be real sensitive about the water table in San Jose.
Neal Foard: but they're not just sensible about how they use it. They They make sure that as a member of that community it's going to be better that they're there than if they hadn't been there, and they do that all over the world. It's their it's their approach, they they treat.
Neal Foard: they treat their towns, they treat their people, they treat their customers with so much long-term respect. You're going to be glad you knew me, you know, 10 years from now. You're never going to have to apologize for something I've done, and you know, just like a lot of other car companies they've had recalls.
Neal Foard: But in almost every example
Neal Foard: people that have gone through a toyota recall are happier than if the recall had never happened, because Toyota handles the recall so classically.
Neal Foard: so overkill on making sure that they do right by their customers. They go. Look! Everybody makes mistakes, but nobody recovers like Toyota, and that to me is an example of a company that will, no matter what's happening in Ev or whatever that you know happens to cars to it, is going to be in the transportation business
Neal Foard: well into the 20 s century, I feel pretty confident.
David Avrin: So here's the question, though
David Avrin: how do we impart that story?
David Avrin: Do we let do we do it organically by just those who've had a great experience, or is there a conscious effort? Not not a a a predetermined or or I'm trying to think of the best word. It's not calculated.
Neal Foard: They're doing the right thing, because they need to do the right thing right legally, ethically, moreically. But is there a strategic effort to communicate that? Or do you just do good work and hope that the marketplace figures it out. Yeah, I don't think you can. I don't think you can entirely count on a marketplace to figure it out. Because
David Avrin: well, you know, people have a very limited mind space. They got a lot of things to worry about. How do you right? This is why this is why it's so important for any brand to kind of have a word
Neal Foard: that immediately springs to mind when anybody thinks of you, for you know, for decades for Volvo. It was like if you said Volvo, they go oh, safety safe, and you'd say Toyota, and they go reliable, or some version of that
Neal Foard: and
Neal Foard: But but what I believe that any any brand can do when it's out in the world
Neal Foard: is to celebrate its tribe.
Neal Foard: that is.
Neal Foard: every communication should be a love letter to the people that big what you do.
Neal Foard: and i'll give you an example of like an heiser bush, for example, when they would advertise around Christmas. You knew they were going to do a Clyde-dale AD absolutely and it was going to be a lovely
Neal Foard: it's genuinely heartfelt. And and they've done some beautiful ones over the years, you know, like Dalmatian. Then it we can think of all of those right right exactly. They They spring to mind so easily because storytelling has that capacity
Neal Foard: to hit a heart string to make you go. Oh, yeah, dang I hadn't thought of it that way. And so Anna's a bush also for years and years did working man advertising it would celebrate you know these, the the wonderful everyday
Neal Foard: things that people would do with one another because they were. They were. They had old fashioned values. Yeah, I think there was one with the with Paul Harvey. Narration one of the best one of the best. Oh, God! I look polar
Neal Foard: And what I believe for any company like say a Toyota is to it's advertising should be a love letter to the people that dig what they do, and that means a celebration of people who are stalwart and intrepid, and Don't give up and try to do the right thing.
Neal Foard: And
Neal Foard: you know there are. There are so many beautiful ways to do that they they did the most marvelous super bowl or no Olympic ads that featured athletes that had been that you know, that were handicapped in some way, right, and they and they do these
Neal Foard: beautiful sentiments around something we can all agree in, and you walk away with something so long, lasting, and such an emotional impression. You don't even know that the next time that you see the brand you can't trace back. Why, you just want them to win.
Neal Foard: But you do.
David Avrin: And in that sense I was gonna say, tell me really, quickly, from your experience, though I want to go. I want to talk about that
David Avrin: mit Ctl. And because it was a departure from the traditional features and benefits. It was a departure from the great catchy jingle that you remember it in your mind to do that kind of institutional advertising that doesn't necessarily talk about the product or the price 100
David Avrin: in the early days that had to have been a hard sell.
Neal Foard: Yeah, you're a 100% right? Because how do you? How do you measure the roi on that one? Well, okay. So you're you're absolutely correct. So
Neal Foard: I knew I I knew a lot of Toyota dealers, and they were like any group of people. They were on a spectrum, and Some people were real hard chargers, and they were very much as you were suggesting, which is all about the price, and you got to sell the car. I mean, sell it like it's on sale. And then there were other guys that go. Come on! The product is so bulletproof. I don't understand why you're just not talking about that.
Neal Foard: I think we
Neal Foard: the people
Neal Foard: you mean do me a favor and pause for a second. Do we fear of Positive? Because I lost this, you know. People pause, pause for a second because I lost. I lost coverage
Neal Foard: we always used to have and lock this.
Neal Foard: There are many dealers that were fond of the urgency.
Neal Foard: The the Toyota dealers were like any group of people. They were on a spectrum, and some were a super aggressive about making sure that they wanted every message to be about how the product was on sale. And then there was at the other end the dealers that were real, true believers, that the product was superior, and there was never any reason to do anything except to talk about the superior of the product.
Neal Foard: because that would inflate its value, and when they came in and talked price they would, you know, pretty much accept anything. Okay? Well.
Neal Foard: we were always having this argument about this phrase.
Neal Foard: the phrase was, there may never be a better time to buy than right now.
Neal Foard: Now
Neal Foard: it used to drag me crazy because of this. If you really unpack that phrase, there may never be a better time to buy than right now. Is that a lie? No; but it's equally true
Neal Foard: that there may be a better time to buy than right. Now.
Neal Foard: when a statement is equally true and untrue.
Neal Foard: it's essentially inert, it offers you nothing right. It has No, it may have calories, but it has no nutritional value.
Neal Foard: and I it bothered me.
Neal Foard: They didn't intend for people to hear it the way they said it.
Neal Foard: They only intended them to misinterpret what they'd said. The the ones that love the phrase wanted people to think. Oh, they just said, there will never be a better time to buy than right now 150
Neal Foard: They were being intentionally deceptive.
Neal Foard: and that struck me as so not Toyota.
Neal Foard: and what else? It struck me as the bulk of the dealers. Despite the reputation of card dealers, the bulk of the dealers were super cool. They were like they were doing the best they could to deliver awesome service, and there was one dealer in particular I used to love. His favorite phrase was. I'll lose a little money to make a friend.
Neal Foard: and the reason he was willing to do that was, he knew that when you had a loyal customer.
Neal Foard: you would wind up selling them about 12 cars
Neal Foard: right?
Neal Foard: So
Neal Foard: so the lifetime value of that he was big into lifetime value, and he was. He was a killer man. This guy made so much money because he was always so good to people. But anyway, my point going back to okay. But how? What do you say about the brand? The ones that believed in
Neal Foard: in phrases like, I'll lose a little money to make it, Fred, the the ones that believed that
Neal Foard: the the product message should be a love letter to the people that buy it.
Neal Foard: Ultimately they wound up, being incredibly successful and beloved in their communities and
Neal Foard: the others, you know I won't use some of the phrases, but they were pretty salty phrases about like right where they went, but it isn't it the difference between those who are who are perceived as transactional in those who are? I mean, that's we see that. But but but it but it comes from having a long view.
David Avrin: and of your business, and even when you know I speak for a living, and even when we we lose a gig. We already have our our speakers this year, but we'll we'll look you for next year. It's like that's good. I gotta pay my mortgage next year, too right, and be able to and and to build those relationship. But let's let's go back to stories. Now, of course.
David Avrin: stories have have come far more mainstream doesn't mean it's always done well to help create the story for the brand. Right?
David Avrin: Talk to us about the the the elevation of understanding and recognition for the value of that and those who do it well, and those who don't, I mean, talk about the current state of storytelling sort of in in brand development and and and communicating
Neal Foard: I was gonna say value proposition. But we we'll we'll. We'll leave it at that. Well, it's a current state there. Yeah. So it's a funny thing that, as you, as you suggest, the the very term storytelling is kind of in vogue right now very much, and and I
Neal Foard: will it ever go out of style? Well, the term will go out of style, but the art form will will not. And here's how I know that because it's the original art form.
Neal Foard: It's not the world's oldest profession, but it is the thing that it's the thing our brains have been built to do. For example.
Neal Foard: when I it is very not hard to imagine a bunch of cave people sitting around in front of a fireplace
Neal Foard: a 100 1,000 years ago, and essentially having the same conversations we're having, like right now just about different things, and and one of them is going to say, oh, do you remember when
Neal Foard: killed the bison? And then they and then somebody will go. Oh, no! Face the giant bison with a broken leg, and but you know I mean it. It's this. It never changes, and we it's how we remember our history. you know mythical great figures Teddy Roosevelt.
Neal Foard: What do people know about Teddy Roosevelt, you know, charging up San Long Hill right? And
Neal Foard: and
Neal Foard: not to remember data, but to remember
David Avrin: was again.
Neal Foard: It's it's instinctive.
Neal Foard: and I don't know what's happening, because I I've got a I've got a super high speed line just plus you're but You're back perfect. You're back. It was just that we You said we remember him charging up San Juan Hill. Just take it from there. We'll pretend. Okay?
Neal Foard: Well, i'll cut all that up.
Neal Foard: The
Neal Foard: The people are so accustomed to hearing stories and passing along stories, whether it's in the form of gossip, or whether it's in repeating something they see on TV or reminiscing about a sporting event. Or and I could go on and on. You would all understand that storytelling is such an ancient art form that
Neal Foard: it is, I believe, under appreciated in that. This is how you can reach people.
Neal Foard: Now there are a couple of things that strike me, as people are often underestimating or overestimating that power. Now, here's here's something that people
Neal Foard: underestimate.
Neal Foard: and that is
Neal Foard: when you tell a story that is about essentially the values of the person you're talking to. That is about
Neal Foard: things they love or that are important to them.
Neal Foard: You have their attention. Yeah, because they can so easily place themselves in the tail.
Neal Foard: And here's something that people overestimate.
Neal Foard: They overestimate the need to self-aggrandize.
Neal Foard: They when you tell a story, and you are the hero.
Neal Foard: You're not doing yourself any big favors.
Neal Foard: You're hamstringing yourself, because when you tell a story where you are, the hero
Neal Foard: you are! You are no longer standing next to the person
Neal Foard: talking to them.
Neal Foard: You are. You are putting yourself up on a box
Neal Foard: and asking to be worshipped.
Neal Foard: There's this marvelous quote from George Orwell, where he says no autobiography is to be trusted, unless it reveals something disgraceful. The
Neal Foard: and any man who gives a good account of himself, is probably lying, because any life, when looked at from the inside is little more than a series of defeats.
Neal Foard: Yeah. And when I read that
David Avrin: the ones for me, the the ones that have really resonated the ones that I have have had additional life online is where I was very self deprecating a scenario where I really screwed up.
Neal Foard: and of course there's the the lesson in the loss, or something of that. But but I think it's a it's a good transition, because I know, for many of who are watching or listening want to talk about your stories.
David Avrin: And for those who haven't. Go on, Instagram, Go on, tik tok. Go on, Youtube and and search up Neil forward F. O. Ard, and some of the most profoundly inspirational. I think I think the mechanism for how you record it. the melodic soft, the soft voice, and what you do tell the stories. I want to talk about how it is just remarkable sound, but it's it's so
David Avrin: kind and revealing, and anecdotal with always a a clear purpose at the end. Talk to us before we go into some of the specifics. What was the genesis? And what did you hope to get out of them when you started doing them.
Neal Foard: I'll tell you what the basic impetus for the stories was the fact that my daughter
Neal Foard: never met my dad.
Neal Foard: and it is it's the thing where I always go. Oh, God! That's so sad! He would have loved her and she him because he was. and By the way, there's kind of interesting about my voice in particular it's my dad's voice. I can when I hear it, I go. Oh, yeah, that's the old man, and and I can hear him in my
Neal Foard: head.
Neal Foard: and I find myself more and more as I get older. Speaking like he used to speak. He sounded like an old film Noir movie from the fortys. He had these turns of phrases that were right out of an alumin lad Detective movie. Yeah, I would say, and then get a shave. And he I you read me, and he would say, stuff like that. But any case.
Neal Foard: because my daughter never met my dad. I felt like it was important to tell her some stories about him, and in particular the things that I learned from him.
Neal Foard: And so that was sort of the starting point. It was a kind of a record, if you will, of of the things that were important to me, what I discovered from people's comments and the things that they would share like a couple of these videos went pretty. It's pretty viral.
Neal Foard: and people would say.
Neal Foard: Oh, My God!
Neal Foard: you know, Thank you for this. It it reminds me that we're not all bad.
Neal Foard: And I thought, oh.
Neal Foard: yeah, now that you mentioned it, the media that we get soaked in
Neal Foard: by and large. Is
Neal Foard: it's kind of negative? Not right, not. I mean.
Neal Foard: let's face it. TV. News feels like it's. Their obligation is to, you know, keep us in a perpetual panic that you know. There it's. It feels like their job is to say, see this problem way over here, thousands of miles away that are life-threatening to those people. That's your problem.
Neal Foard: But but in a way neil it's also low hanging fruit isn't it. I mean, if you if you think about and I'm taking off subject for a minute, we'll go back. You think about sort of the classic
David Avrin: horror movies, the ones that really built suspense, the Rosemary's baby, the things that scar in in our youth right today it's the low hanging fruit. It's somebody jumping out and stabbing him in the chest. Right! It's really easy at the end of a romance to kill off the protagonist to elicit tears. It's lazy.
David Avrin: but but but this but the stories that you do are the real, the relatable. They're inspirational. And so when you started them, it's sort of that love letter to your dad through your daughter, or to your daughter from your dad. How how did the feedback
David Avrin: drive
David Avrin: future
David Avrin: videos?
Neal Foard: I got a sense that people you
Neal Foard: treated the videos almost like an aspirin tablet for some kind of pain they were feeling. And so I thought, you know, i'm gonna do. Is, i'm just gonna keep telling all the stories that I can from my own personal experience, because.
Neal Foard: in spite of the fact that we keep hearing how awful we all are, and how we're all at each other's throats. My experience was actually pretty good. Now, in other words, I was starting to notice.
Neal Foard: this is, these people are holding the door open for you, or they're letting you in traffic, and you know, for every time somebody cuts you off in traffic. I'll bet you there's a case where somebody let you in or 5. Thank you. Yeah, thank you exactly. Because Little and Frank there, right, if you just started to pay attention. What you're going to discover is that
Neal Foard: the reason people don't make a big deal out of the small courtesies every day is because they are so abundant They're not news right? They're so common that you you you're not
Neal Foard: that it to you. The default setting is, you know, that people say thank you, and they mean it. And you know my experience in New York, New York City. Oh, man, I love to New York my experience in New York City was. It had this reputation for everybody being all abrupt and nasty, and that was not my experience at all. They're actually remarkably sentimental.
Neal Foard: You know it's sweet. Now it comes off as brusque because they're impatient right, because because they're in a hurry. But
Neal Foard: I, you know every diner, you know case and and people that were they, because brilliant sense of humor where they it seems like they're being terse. But in fact, they're just winking at you like. you know. Hey? It's not going to be it right, you know. Relax and
Neal Foard: And you know what all over America, whether it's Wyoming or San Francisco or Los Angeles or New York. It's all the same deal. It's just different styles, but you know what people are pretty much ninety-five-six 96% pretty awesome.
Neal Foard: And you know what you know where we get in. Trouble is where you start to think that's not true, and then you feel like a sucker for being cool.
Neal Foard: and that's because we keep getting banged over the head that we're all trash, and everything's a train wreck and a dumpster fire is like, No, no, no.
David Avrin: Well, the minute you put yourself out there, you know you can put a picture of a Golden Retriever puppy online, and you'll be You'd be land based in 5. Me what you hate, Ken Buddy. Oh, you're You're to do animal bondage right? Yeah. But but I don't you think and maybe coming out of Covid as part of it. But I think it. I think it's universal
David Avrin: is, I think, what you do, and i'm going to gush over you for a minute. I I think what you do is I I think you give people a pause for a great story. I I gotta believe that your stuff is gotta be some of the most forwarded I forwarded to my kids. I mean, my kids are all sort of 19 to 28 years old.
David Avrin: and I forwarded to them to see it, and isn't it the same thing that's driving this passion behind Ted Lasso.
Neal Foard: for example. Yeah.
Neal Foard: right just a little kindness and optimism as a reprieve, and it's one of the shows I put off for a while because I was like, yes, the fish out of water. I I get the ugly American and people like No, and I came to realize a couple of episodes in it's not the show. I thought it was going to be. I was exactly the same way, David. Precisely the same way. I I
Neal Foard: didn't realize that superficially it
Neal Foard: that that it wasn't. He's a he's a he's, he's a he's he's kind. There's something else about Ted last, so I think, is really significant and important, and that is that
Neal Foard: you know Americans do have a kind of global reputation that that is very it's varied, right? So we think, as Americans that we make awful tourists actually the market research out there in the world is no people kind of like Americans. Number one we over tip
Neal Foard: but but to the that, despite the reputation of Americans, we are more likely to try to learn the local language.
Neal Foard: We are very generous and very sweet natured. We smile at people, and which is unexpected in certain places.
Neal Foard: Denmark or whatever. But but
Neal Foard: the Ted lasso quality that he brings to that show is actually, it's based on the
Neal Foard: people's real experience with Americans, which is, we are well-meaning bumpkins
Neal Foard: we are.
Neal Foard: We are not sophisticated, but we sure are
Neal Foard: our hearts in the right place, and Canadians same way, and Australians, Canadians, Australians, Americans.
Neal Foard: You'll find that.
Neal Foard: despite our reputations internally, we
Neal Foard: we're kind of well like now, this that is completely independent of whatever various governments do. Okay, so absolutely, whatever the administrations do, the the national character is actually kind of sweet natured one.
Neal Foard: And
Neal Foard: what happens is the more oxygen you give to our negative impression.
Neal Foard: the more people feel like that's how they ought to behave right. And I for and part of my impulse and doing the stories is to try to be a
Neal Foard: an antidote and try to be a reminder that people are actually pretty cool. I Some of the things I've seen and heard as a result of being out there, and and some of the feedback I'm getting
David Avrin: is really encouraging. Is it a heartwarming for for you, even personally, to know that you're making a different. But let me ask you a question, because I had to. My first book was sort of the Sappy dad book, and it was just that when I was turning 40, and i'll be 60 this year 150.
David Avrin: it was kind of a love letter to my kids. I'm sort of like if I look back at the end of my life, what do I want to have learned and earned and loved and lost, and and I found myself just the exercise of mining my life.
David Avrin: because I, because my publisher, had deadlines, and I had to have certain rewards written, and I would take Fridays off for about 2 months, and I would just try and think of
David Avrin: the stories I mean. It's so easy for people to tell the starfish story or other crap like that.
David Avrin: But as I listen to your stories, of course
David Avrin: they're they're about you, and the experiences of you had, but they're so universal. How do you? How do you mind? How do you choose which stories? How do you realize? Oh, my God! I got to come up with a story for this week's Video: what's your process for that?
Neal Foard: i'll usually start with
Neal Foard: Well, I keep it. I keep a nice of, you know all of the
Neal Foard: yeah I love mosque. Just jot something there when you have an idea right? And so what I what I will be doing is I will literally go.
Neal Foard: I will think about it a year
Neal Foard: like i'll go. Okay.
Neal Foard: You know 1,975. What was what was happening? Where was I in my head? Back? Then? 1,000, 986,995, and I will. I'm trying to find the right page, so you can see it, because it's pretty funny in some of the notes that I make myself. But
Neal Foard: i'll really just go back in time and think what happened that year and
Neal Foard: in general, and go back to the Orwell quote in general. It's some mistake I made
Neal Foard: like i'll, I'll beat myself up, and then i'll say, you know what you know I get over beating myself up of this. I'm going to make something out of this i'm going to. I'm going to tell people the lesson that I learned from this mistake.
Neal Foard: and
Neal Foard: little things I did that were inadvertently racist that I wasn't aware of.
Neal Foard: and I shared a story like that.
David Avrin: Well, look at that. That's great for those watching the video version. Watch the video, and you can see as well. That's great, and you have. You have great artistic penmanship. One would be chicken. Scratch and then from that do you develop, because here's one of the things I love about your stories as well. is they have characters.
David Avrin: They have dialogue
David Avrin: it's not so. And so said, this is when someone so says this, you say it as them, saying this
David Avrin: right that got me into trouble. By the way. Oh, I can imagine, because there there always be those sense of saying you're mocking. But nobody who watches your stuff thinks for a minute that you're mocking any particular ethnicity. Yeah, but but let them.
Neal Foard: It's, you know. I'm so so awful, by the way. Oh, my God, David, the the sensation that you feel when you know that somebody thought you were
David Avrin: disrespecting somebody. St. That it's the hardest thing in our business, though, Neil, you know, When I started speaking somebody said, listen.
David Avrin: 5 of your audience will not like you, no matter what you do, and you could say it's about them. But there's something else I got heckled once. I was speaking, to mentioned. I mentioned so huge the National Association of Realtors, and I mentioned something about chick-fil-a. And I they're screaming. They hey? Gays. Oh, okay, okay. I and I took a pause and I said, All right, let's
David Avrin: let's move on. I'll have. I'd love to have a conversation with you. But can we move forward? But i'm telling you if we so worried about I mean if we come with a good heart, and there's nothing that's overtly
David Avrin: if you worry about everybody you wouldn't be. You wouldn't be posting content. How do you? How do you strike that balance?
Neal Foard: Here's Here's the thing, is it when this like, I say this, this really got to me. It got to me because I had had only the best intentions. I'll tell you the story, if you don't mind. No, please, it goes like this. We have as much time as you want. When I was in Hong Kong I lived there for 2 years, and I was completely out of my depth that people don't really understand how incredibly different
Neal Foard: Chinese culture is from Occidental culture, and and
Neal Foard: you know I I discovered just how stupid I was when I was out there.
Neal Foard: Well, as it happened, I had a a friend who was from Mumbai, and he was
Neal Foard: incredibly intelligent, you
Neal Foard: and he had this to my ear. His English was gorgeous, it was.
Neal Foard: It was
Neal Foard: soft and
Neal Foard: elegant.
Neal Foard: His diction was beautiful, his choice of words was so lyrical and educated
Neal Foard: that in my head.
Neal Foard: when I was imitating him it was a love letter to this. How I saw this guy right? But it was an Indian accent, sure.
Neal Foard: and
Neal Foard: i'll just take.
Neal Foard: I'm gonna just say one phrase in particular. You listen. You have permission on this show. We've all heard the the the
David Avrin: pre-qualification of this. Okay. But you know you weren't doing horrible stereotypes of.
Neal Foard: I had continuous stores or things like that
Neal Foard: at the end of the story the story was basically about how I had had an incident that happened, and it had opened a kind of window of consciousness. Briefly, one of my favorite stories that you've told. Oh, I love that! Oh, my God! And what had happened was that a a neuroscientist who had met at a party in Menlo Park had explained to me the the physiology, the the chem, the brain chemistry that had led to that, and then it wasn't any great revelation. It was simply
Neal Foard: it. It was an experience of of opioids self-generated opioids creating a sensation it was, and and in doing so for those who haven't seen. He diminished your experience by just dismissing it as chemicals in your
Neal Foard: right. So all he was doing was, he was just saying, oh, just to inform you about why that happened. It happened like this, and I was very crestfallen, because I thought.
Neal Foard: Oh, that's oh! And here I thought it was this profound
Neal Foard: revealing moment. Okay. So then, years and years ago, by and then I tell
Neal Foard: Kiran this man I respect. I told him the story, and his version of it was quite different.
Neal Foard: and he was disappointed in the neuroscientist. And the last line, he said, was for all his intelligence. He belittles the profound.
Neal Foard: and
Neal Foard: I thought, oh, what a
Neal Foard: beautiful phrase! And it rolled off his tongue in a beautiful, beautiful dialect.
Neal Foard: Exactly to my year. Yeah, Indian accented English is what some of the most pleasant okay, sure. But unfortunately
Neal Foard: for some people, they interpreted that as me.
Neal Foard: I don't know. You know it would say, mocking.
Neal Foard: Yeah, you you were. You were reliving and reflecting, and so my daughter says to me, she, so she can tell. And how is she, by the way, she's 22. Okay, so she says to me, Look, I don't don't let it, bother you. But let me just fill you in.
Neal Foard: If you're worried about something like that, then let me ask you a question. If he was standing right in front of you right now, would you use that accent.
Neal Foard: oh.
Neal Foard: okay, hmm.
interesting.
Neal Foard: In other words.
Neal Foard: if if you're gonna.
Neal Foard: if you're going to use a story or you're going to tell a story like this.
Neal Foard: Just try to picture the people sitting right in front of you.
Neal Foard: and then ask yourself if you would tell it that way.
Neal Foard: and you know what I thought. Okay, you know. Maybe not. Maybe i'm not.
Neal Foard: And so it's a learning. It was a learning experience, but it's all. It's a good sensitivity to happen. But i'll tell you, and we're going back to story
David Avrin: is stories, have characters and stories have textures and heroes, and of course, and it's never you.
David Avrin: And there was something, Gandhique.
David Avrin: your presentation of that story that added a layer, a texture of wisdom.
David Avrin: and it's it's it's the final line of the I actually wrote it down. So I mean, that's that's how profound! And for those who are watching listening, remind us what that that story that vignette is called.
Neal Foard: It's called what actually went down.
David Avrin: Okay, Neil Ford, what actually went down. I encourage you. We're short on time, but
David Avrin: that one probably touched me the most. There was other ones the one about the the the guy in the future, or who sent the note with the yeah By and large. They're all true stories. Yeah, and and that's that's the best part of it. And i'd love to go into all. I encourage everybody who is watching and listening.
David Avrin: This is your daily Ted last. So you want the high concept. Pitch the high concept pitch. This is Paul Harvey meets Ted Lasso
David Avrin: and and David that's quickly becoming a fan of yours. No, please stop, please. No more stuff. but no, look him up. Look him up. So here's My, but here's a couple of questions. So.
David Avrin: besides continuing which, of course, we always hope you do, just as we hope that what's his name? Kept writing Calvin and Hobbes forever. But there was only time at some point. I look at it. This is things like this is my comfort. This is what I you know, in addition to some inappropriate stuff I send to my brothers just because it's
David Avrin: because we're guys and for those listening, please don't get offended. I'm not talking about horribly cruel. It just funny things
David Avrin: this is my this is my daily or every other day. Ted Lasso.
David Avrin: Is this a book
David Avrin: you take what is what's becomes 50 60,000 words and realize I'm going to take the best of the best right, rewrite it for the page, and that you're working on right. That right wonderful woman out! I figured out here all right. Quick speed round
David Avrin: that we do at the end. You're ready for this ready? Okay, I'm gonna put on my my smart guy glasses to do this. Okay, speed, speed round.
David Avrin: What was your most unexpected comment or response to a video.
Neal Foard: well, it was.
Neal Foard: It was
Neal Foard: sorry. Wow! Talk I i'm, i'm blowing the speed round thing. Let me just answer that 2 ways if you don't mind. So the first way is the unexpected comment or response was Holy Cow. This got a big response. In other words, I was. I was astonished at how people felt the way I felt.
Neal Foard: You know there's a lesson in that. By the way, David.
Neal Foard: right we are. We are not meant to face this life alone. We are not meant to take this journey alone, and if there was one thing that just absolutely put the wind on into my sales. It was Holy Count. There's a lot of people out there who feel like you feel.
Neal Foard: Oh, my God, that ought to make you feel pretty good. It's. You know what we're not so bad. Okay. So that was one reaction. And then the second unexpected reaction was when people went after me for the accent thing, and that really hurt. It hurt because I could see their point.
Neal Foard: and it was well intentioned. And you, you you don't want to hurt anybody's feelings. I didn't. But when I when I saw that I did it, the oh, dang
Neal Foard: that's
Neal Foard: shoot.
Neal Foard: you know there's nothing makes you flinch as much as when you know you're kind of wrong, or, if not wrong, at least you were. You were being in this, and that. That's when I really get angry is when I get mad at myself. So that was the and there's a story in the me a culpa, as well
Neal Foard: they might might come out of that as well. What? Here's the other question. What what do you hope will come of this?
Neal Foard: Well,
Neal Foard: as I say, I don't think we're meant to take on life alone. And what's happened between between our media and things like the pandemic and
Neal Foard: And you know, recessions, or what have you?
Neal Foard: People often feel like they're in. They're in competition with one another. I think they are artificially inflating the degree to which we are in competition.
Neal Foard: and that
Neal Foard: yeah human, the human species, our great superpower that people don't seem to recognize is our capacity for teamwork and cooperation
Neal Foard: and the the
Neal Foard: the thirst for togetherness.
Neal Foard: We all, I think it's being, I think, this: the American culture is being sold to bill of goods, that the most admirable figure is the lone cowboy doing things on their own. The great man, the great man who would succeed, no matter what, as opposed to no
Neal Foard: somebody who is really really good at.
Neal Foard: at helping people cooperate and work together and join as a unit and celebrate their triumphs as a team. I'll ask you. I'll ask you a sincere question, David, if you could get an Olympic gold medal
Neal Foard: in any sport
Neal Foard: which one would it be
David Avrin: legitimate sport
David Avrin: where that's it Going Javelin catching. Oh, wait, that's that's not a real
David Avrin: Yeah, I I and I try to draw a distinction between the ones I enjoy watching what I would like to participate in, probably some. My My father was a huge ucla fan. He grew up in Southern California, so we love to watch, track and field together. So i'd love to be the fastest man in the world. How's that?
Neal Foard: I I I feel you there who doesn't want to be able to say. But but i'll tell you why. I asked the question, because
Neal Foard: if you could have been a member of the 1,980 a Men's Olympic hockey. There you go. Yeah. Do you believe in miracles? Yes.
Neal Foard: Al Michaels the best herb Brooks, the coach of that team. Yeah, His very famous remark was, I don't want the best players. I want the right players.
Neal Foard: and he needed people who would die before they would let their teammates down.
Neal Foard: and he got him.
Neal Foard: And what if I remember thinking
Neal Foard: that
Neal Foard: if you had won a gold medal on that team
Neal Foard: you could be 95 years old
Neal Foard: and still find somebody who felt that feeling like that team.
Neal Foard: you know what I mean. Can you remember like it was yesterday like? Was you right?
David Avrin: Because everything came together. It was a team. They were underdogs. They were college kids against the pseudo-professional Russians, the the the unexpected, that the joy okay, so You've nailed it with that word
Neal Foard: the because it was the joy it was the shared joy.
Neal Foard: Yeah, they're just not going to have that same sense when you
Neal Foard: you could. You can be the world's fastest man, and you can win a gold medal in the 100 Meter.
Neal Foard: but 20 years from now
Neal Foard: you won't, be able to sit with somebody and have a beer, and have them
Neal Foard: know how you feel, because they felt it, too, because they were there, and because you share it, they
Neal Foard: because it was mutually one. It amplifies the joy, and I think this is something underestimated by us.
Neal Foard: and that one we ought to work a little harder, for this is what I'm hoping for is that part of what's driving you is recognizing that that what you're sharing is your story, but it's it's our collective experience, the the feedback. I was getting, the sudden recognition that other people felt how I felt
Neal Foard: that was so reassuring to me. It was so like food and drink to me that I think. Oh, if I can get these messages out into the world and make somebody else feel like they're not alone. Then
Neal Foard: you know what mission accomplished.
Neal Foard: It'll be like my personal gold medal.
David Avrin: Great conversation with the
David Avrin: amazing and profound Neil. Forward. What a good man you are! I really appreciate the time. If I could listen, I would. People want to get in touch with you.
Neal Foard: What formal channel can they do? How can they look you up? Besides, the I'm. Super easy super easy, because i'm the only one on earth that spells the name. My name on the way I so it's N. E. A. L.
Neal Foard: F. O. Ard, and it's just neil forward at gmail.com just email me, and I also have a a company. I I will teach storytelling, and I teach brand communications, and I go under the the URL passionate logiccom.
Neal Foard: But again, if you want to just reach out to me, what an opportunity to sit at the feet of the master! I really encourage you.
David Avrin: You'll get hooked. but but watch the videos on. I watch one tiktok for as long as that's going to be around Youtube and Instagram, and not them to you, Luke.
David Avrin: consume it, drink this up with a spoon, and share it with others. I I think this is this is a spark that becomes a brush fire. I I think your brand is is being built and refined
David Avrin: almost inadvertently. But I but I appreciate the friendship. I appreciate the stories. It's one of those things that I think people who watch this will feel like they know you, and I think the authenticity with which you ply your trade validates that I think they do know you. I think we do know you by the stories that you tell, and I appreciate that, my friend.
David Avrin: Wow, David, I appreciate that room, Mark. That's that's it. Hang on! We're gonna talk on the other end. quick self promotion big thanks to Neil Ford. You can pick up a copy of my new book and grab it here from underneath. Here it's called
David Avrin: the Morning Huddle, like Neal does it? Stories? It's it's it's sparking conversation, and the tagline is powerful customer experience, conversations to wake you up and shake you up and win more business. in fact, all of my books that are strategically located next to my head are available on Amazon Com, and be sure to click to like this podcast that's important. Subscribe. You'll hear these great conversations as we go into the New Year. and then click the little bell icon to receive notifications and new events. Leave a comment. That's important as well.
David Avrin: and if you want to learn more about my keynote speaking my consulting, look me up at David averin.com big thanks to my my friend Neil Ford. Look him up, watch his videos. And that's it. I'm. David Avrin, be good.