Phil Jones Interview - Author & Sales strategist
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There's no shortage of approaches to sales and the art of persuasion. Everyone tries, although few succeed consistently. But just imagine if you were able to approach every business conversation with the verbal tools and strategies to generate the best outcome almost every time. Well, my guest today is Phil M. Jones. He's the author of the staggeringly successful books Exactly What to Say and Exactly How to Sell. David Avrin: He's going to give you some insight into how to do both of those better than your competition. I'm talking today to the incomparable Phil M. Jones.
David Avrin: Hey, friends, Welcome to the Customer Experience Advantage Podcast, the very handsome man next to me on the screen for those of you who are watching the video version of this which is available on my website, and of course, on Youtube and things like that as well. Of course all the audio channels as well. Um, i'm excited today because we're going to talk about the words that we use
David Avrin: to be persuasive to. Still, not, as I said in the introduction, there's no shortage of approaches, not a lot of people do this. Well, there's a lot of sort of standard, you know. Don't sell. People want to buy, but the reality is for all of us in business. Nothing happens until somebody sells something, unless you are a not for profit or an inadvertent, not for profit, which many people were during Covid. Um, how we how we buy, and why we buy is changing, and I think the the vernacular, the strategies that we use has to change as well.
David Avrin: Well, My guest today, Phil M. Jones has has, whether he stumbled upon artfully crafted uh has really captured the attention of the world in so many different language. Let me give a quick introduction, and we'll talk to him. Uh, Phil and Jones mission is simple. To help great people get better, because relentless focus on getting better means that better soon beats
David Avrin: the current best. He is the author of the Million plus selling exactly what to say. The magic works for influence and impact. It's the most listen to non-fiction book of all times. Let that uh in for a second. He's also the author of exactly how to sell he's an entrepreneurial success story, and the founder of five multi million dollar companies. He's a strategic advisor to pioneering leaders of the world's biggest brands. He's, the youngest ever winner of the British excellence of sales and marketing award. When you think about how many people have been selling one hundred and fifty
David Avrin: throughout British history, Let's call that tens of millions pretty remarkable. He's also one of less than two hundred living members of the National Speakers Association Hall of Fame. I was in the audience watching him, except that great honor and the author of Seven best selling business books and one gorgeous Children's book,
David Avrin: Big Welcome to our guest, Phil M. Jones. Good morning or afternoon. Morning, David. Good afternoon. Good day. Wherever we are in the world, right wherever anybody is listening to this. But it is a joy to be here. Thanks for having me on the show.
David Avrin: Absolutely. So listen. I. I've been a fan uh we're friends, but i'm also sort of marveled from afar. Um! And I think to some extent you might must have just been sitting back and going uh how? How did this accelerate the way that it had, and capture such an attention Before we go into some of the specific strategies to help our listeners, our viewers uh better position, their products and services. Better be more convincing, and persuas with their conversations. Tell us a little bit about your journey. And what led you to this?
Phil M Jones: Um, we're really worldwide acclaim for these books and for your strategies, hey? Thank you for that. Yeah. And like every overnight success story, there's a lot of backstory right that it gets to this given point. So I I have been in business for quite some time. I started as a fourteen year old, and I started knocking on the doors of my neighbors, and asking them quite politely whether they wanted to have their cars washed.
Phil M Jones: And I did okay with that little car cleaning business so much so that by the age of fifteen I wasn't going to school as often as I should,
Phil M Jones: and I remember being invited in by my school teachers questioning my attendance, and I responded to them with a question, and the question I responded to was, How much money are you making, sir?
Phil M Jones: And my school teachers refused to tell me, but I had a fairly handsome little business as a fifteen year old, where we were making around two thousand five hundred, maybe three thousand pounds a month around five thousand dollars a month at the time and up.
Phil M Jones: And and the reason I didn't go to class is because I had customers that needed servicing and stuff that needed direction. Things needed to get done. So I've been in the world of business for a long, long time Bill businesses from my team still managed to be out of work. My studies part time around those businesses, but at the age of eighteen didn't take the traditional route of university, et cetera, became the youngest of a sales manager for a big department store group in the Uk.
Phil M Jones: Went from there to run sales teams in the largest furniture retail business in the Uk. And in both those scenarios is a really interesting position that I found myself in is that I was in a senior sales leadership position in my late teens and early twenties.
Phil M Jones: You don't get a lot of respect at that given point in time when it look like you're eleven, right? So um. I learned that one of the best ways that I could command those kind of audiences was to never share with anybody what I thought they should do.
Phil M Jones: I would study the behaviors of others that were getting great results, and all. I'd redo was package their stories and then share them with somebody else. So it's like, hey? I've been watching what John's been up to John's crushing it. And here are some of the things that Job does that you might be able to do.
Phil M Jones: This style of leadership gave me this crowdsourced experience accidentally, but
Phil M Jones: through before crowdsource was, was it. Yeah, before it was even a term. But it was like, Hey, I'm just getting this like mastermind, even for another term that probably wasn't being used at the time a ability to be understand what it was that was making other people successful.
Phil M Jones: I went through a number of other sales leadership roles, but soon came to realize that past hard work, hustle, product, knowledge, understanding, good network, and all the things that we know lead towards success. The key decision, maker or delineator between those that did good and those that crushed it
Phil M Jones: was the ones that really crushed it knew exactly what to say and how to make it, count. They knew the right words at the right time could make all of the difference.
Phil M Jones: Knowing this is, I got pedantic about word choices from a very, very, very early age, and started to get a document.
Phil M Jones: What I started to happen when I started to document is that C passes
Phil M Jones: regardless of industry, regardless of scenario, regardless of what that winner was doing, is they were following the similar kind of process. They were following a similar kind of protocol, and on often occasions we utilize in the exact same sequence of words,
Phil M Jones: learning to be able to bottle that when I started my sales training business in two thousand and eight
Phil M Jones: I would always sprinkle in examples of what I was calling magic words into my one-day two-day three-day seminars. But
Phil M Jones: then, weeks, months, years after the fact. What was the thing that people would remember?
Phil M Jones: They'd come back to say, Hey, Phil, I love your magic words right So two thousand and ten, two thousand and eleven that became my lead capture. It became, Hey, what was on a website or a giveaway, or a back of the room? Take away hand out, et cetera. Was this little pamphlet of magic words? If I wanted to do an event that was about lead capture for my consulting business, I would speak on magic words. It was high impact. Big Takeaway would still the show.
And then what happened was as I found myself in a mastermind group around two thousand and eleven,
Phil M Jones: with some other speaker, trainer friends of mine in the Uk. And we were talking about book publishing, and how hard it was to publish a book, and me and my big mouth, and it's not that hard I mean. Geez, You could turn a book around in two weeks.
Phil M Jones: You know how this plays out. Find your money where your mouth is, and let's get this thing done. So I published a book in two weeks called Magic words, and between you and I, David, it was quick, dirty, scrappy. It was not my proudest piece of work, but we took that two page Pdf. We expanded it into what was more of a pamphlet and called it a book.
Phil M Jones: It went line on Amazon. It went out on Kdp. Selects, and I woke up one morning to one hundred and twenty thousand downloads of said book
Phil M Jones: book was well received. It ran as part of my business system from a giveaway from an add on to clients. It generated a little bit of revenue, but it was never the biggest of deals commercially, but it was a big deal in my body of work from an Ip point of view,
Phil M Jones: so fast forward to two thousand and seventeen,
Phil M Jones: and i'm making a decision with my wife that we're gonna move to the Us. My wife's American. Some personal circumstances in her world said that we should probably be in the Us. To be able to support some family needs
Phil M Jones: and a global speaking business, global training business. And I didn't want to have a global training or speaking business and move to a new country and deal with the logistical challenges that i'm gonna start a North American Speaking Training coaching, consulting business probably need a new book. Bureau's event plan is, et cetera, like new books. Let's write a new book,
Phil M Jones: and then part way through my idea. Generation of writing a new book i'm like, geez you full. Why on earth would you write a new book when you've got a book that you already know is full of greatest hits that just hasn't been written by
Phil M Jones: so exactly what to say was on at that point where I decided to take what was a successful single Ep. And and finish the album, and then bring that forward in exactly what to say. We lost that in two thousand and seventeen. We're now at a point where it's one point. Seven million copies sold, translated into thirty languages the most listen to non-fiction audio book of all time,
Phil M Jones: but it didn't appear overnight. This has been
Phil M Jones: fifteen years of relentless body of work, even following the ten years of Sales leadership and Sales application it took to be at this still down the body of this work, and I find it
Phil M Jones: really freeing much to realize that the
Phil M Jones: a body of work in this world, everybody needs to think is going wide, whereas in my world right now. It's just narrowing back in and and in today's modern economy
Phil M Jones: with the challenges that coming the other side of growth and the out of the side of fast growth through Internet and globalization, etc. What is the world realizing as we enter into two thousand and twenty-three what matters most
Phil M Jones: is, how do we convert all the key moments the matter? What are the conversations that show up when we're looking to be able to influence employees when we're looking to influence potential customers when we're looking to aid the retention of existing customers. So finally we're getting back to a skills based economy and guess what my works ridiculously relevant again.
David Avrin: Yeah, absolutely. We'll talk to me uh for a moment about the genesis of the title. You'd had a measure of success with magic words precipitated, and you know I assume for some people magic chords, you know, is the Aber Cadabra, or something, or maybe there was some mis mis miscommunication. But if if it ain't broke, don't fix it um clearly you you crafted or stumbled upon something very effective. What was the the catalyst for that? That? Well, some of the best things happen by accident, right? And and
Phil M Jones: we were calling this magic words in all of it, early drafts and addition conditions. Then, me being me does a little bit of research pumps on to Amazoncom
Phil M Jones: types in magic words, and G's. Up pops a book by a guy called Tim David,
Phil M Jones: Tim. David also happens to be a real magician, and and around two thousand fifteen, sixteen it published a book called Magic Words. Now sure, I published a book in two thousand and eleven called Magic Words. We could get into a fight about who got there first. But this is the books world. You cannot copyright a title, and I'm. Like He probably owns that more than I do in this given moment.
Phil M Jones: And how do I turn this adversity into some form of opportunity.
Phil M Jones: Why, Don't, I just retitle the book
Phil M Jones: Now I've been workshop in this material for some time, too right? And we'd run events around this material run events in the small business world. I'd run some infotainment events. So when i'd run an infotainment event in a theatre we'd called the event exactly what to say,
Phil M Jones: because guess what people don't want magic words. What they want to know is exactly what to say.
David Avrin: Mutual friend of ours called Rory Vaiden. Uh I was gonna bring. I was going to bring this up as well. He's he's got this great philosophy on book titles, right instead of post. The title test. Yeah, that's what That's what I want. I want that I was going to say the exact same thing. So what you went there first, But it passed to that test like, Do you want to know exactly what to say? Why, customers leave right? Yes,
Phil M Jones: at past the test. But there's something else That's magic in this title, David, that that I only realize retrospectively. So I don't think this was a genius move. This is a hey? Having sold one million plus copies. Why, like reverse engineering is easier, Right hindsight's beautiful. But there's something in the title that creates friction,
Phil M Jones: because I want that
Phil M Jones: it can't give me that.
Phil M Jones: Oh, geez, it gives me that.
Phil M Jones: Yeah, pretty bold assertion. Correct is like, Oh, I want to be able to open it and read it because I want that thing, the curiosity get this created that it can't possibly give that thing. Make sure they want to dive in the fact that they then gives you the promise of that it delivered is like I should probably go tell somebody about this,
Phil M Jones: so it creates a word of mouth phenomenon behind it, which is, is, is the bit that I get to live in and enjoy. So labeling and titling things is, it is crucial,
Phil M Jones: and what's been fun in that journey from two thousand and seventeen to now is the variety of different scenarios that I've been bought into, that I never had any intention to find myself in. So when we talk about Genesis is, I had no intention of of training district attorneys of judges about how to be more persuasive and influential in mind as the matter.
Phil M Jones: I never had the intention of speaking to nurses about their bedside manner when delivering bad news towards patients families, and never had any attention about how um teachers could be more influential in the conversations they deliver towards parents to be able to create them, buy in that they need
Phil M Jones: erez
Phil M Jones: like historically be focused on a product or service. And today we're realizing that we're often selling ideas outcomes or changes in behavior.
David Avrin: Well, I mean, we've been selling as as the father of five or six. Now um empty nesters with with the uh um step, kids and all as well it's We're we're
David Avrin: selling everything from from making sure you get up and go to class at college to everything back from. They were kids as well. Why, they'd want to come and visit you for Thanksgiving right? Even that exactly right. But but everything we do is is about persuasion, and for you and I you both speak for a living. Um it Sometimes it's. It's difficult to recognize for some people that that's difficult. I'm i'm an extrovert through and through. My wife's the the Introvert, who's comfortable in social situations and everybody's a little bit different. How do you get past, or how did you? Because you had a
David Avrin: level success, get past the naysayers who look at this as
David Avrin: Oh, you can't script your life. You can't script every interaction or transaction, and of course, once you read it, It's not about that. It's right finding those right, those keywords that that get you to that next level from no to, maybe to yes. But I think on the on the surface. I think you probably had to recognize that there were some who are looking. You don't know exactly what to say. It's pretty arrogant. We can't script our life. It doesn't work that way.
Phil M Jones: A. And you're right. We hear a lot of friction around that. And still
Phil M Jones: how many of us listening to this right now have come away from a critical conversation, and thought, Should it would, it could have?
Phil M Jones: How many times did you come away from a critical conversation, and thought, Who enough? Was that idiot? And the person you were talking about was yourself, and we all spend a lot of time debriefing conversations, whether that's internally not head or with others.
Phil M Jones: What if we take that same time, and use that same time? To pre-brief conversations?
Phil M Jones: Now every business owner right now has a quantity of critical and common conversations They're not ready for. I'll give you one example for many listeners. Right now they get asked the how much question on repeat, and they get asked to how much question, and they find themselves lost for words.
Phil M Jones: They stumble over it, they trip over their own tongue. They say things that sabotage their own success in profit, because they didn't get ready for a question They knew they were going to be asked,
Phil M Jones: That is not what a professional would do
Phil M Jones: when we think about scripting. I ask people all the reasons why they don't like scripts, and they say things like. Well, they sound. Can they sound robotic? They're in authentic. They give me this barrage of reasons by then ask him a question to say, If you ever seen a movie,
Phil M Jones: and cried,
Phil M Jones: and then let them into the deep, dark secret. That was an actor reading a script, but it wasn't an actor reading a script, was it? It was an act of performing a script, an actor who had to embody the personality of somebody else, to be able to create a moment that mattered.
Phil M Jones: The thing that you need to be is not an actor. You just need to be yourself.
Phil M Jones: What is masterful, though, is when the actor understands the sequence of words that needs to be delivered. They can live in the moment,
Phil M Jones: not before the moment or after the moment. They can be precisely in that given moment, because they're not up here in their head.
Phil M Jones: They're eyeball to eyeball with the person they're looking to be able to communicate with and their influence in that moment, because they're living in that moment. What also is interesting is some of the best movie moments of ever ever ever happened happened when the actor made a bold choice to go off script.
Phil M Jones: Now, if you're going to go off script, what needs to be true? There also needs to be a script.
Phil M Jones: There you go. Good point right. You cannot go off script. If you didn't have a script
Phil M Jones: and the pros
Phil M Jones: decide that the worst time to think about. The thing you're going to say is in the moment you're saying it doesn't mean that you need to deliver it. Word perfect. It means that you've had to thought about it ahead of time and have a game plan coming into it. That gives you the permission to be able to move
Phil M Jones: when I deliver a keynote presentation, David, when you deliver a keynote, presentation, Is that the first time that you thought about the thing you're going to say,
David Avrin: not even close. It would be a responsible correct if you are responsible for a thousand sets of is for a sixty minute period of time. If you will work in it out on the stage. That would be rude right, which which is, which is ironic, because you and I both know that one of the worst tactics, and it's all crap, anyway, that that some speakers will do. They'll get on stage, and they'll say I had a script prepared for today, but I threw it away this morning, and I decided I'm just going to be here. Come here and tell you the truth. First of all, it's garbage. You didn't throw away your script. You know what you're going to say.
David Avrin: It's manipulative, and even if it was true, it's you responsible, because you're being paid a handsome fee for being there, and you're going to come on stage and win it. Nobody does You're right. You've got to be prepared, and being able to go off script. I think that that's really important for all of us, because I think once again, in answering the naystairs. And you've had this conversation a thousand times is every scenario isn't predictable. But at least, if you're prepared on the basic level, you can go off script because you're in in the moment, and you you anticipated the conversation
Phil M Jones: wherever it might go. And there are more predictable moments, though, than we often get credit for. Absolutely so. For example, I could ask every independent business side of this. Listening to this discussion right now is, what are all the things that your customers say that you wish they didn't,
Phil M Jones: and they're like, I know this one. They say this, they say this, they say this, they say this, they say this, they say this, they say, Well, how prepared are you to prevent them from saying those things?
Phil M Jones: Um.
Phil M Jones: So what's your effective response when they do? Yeah, without being dismissive or unprepared. Well, how do you get ahead of it
Phil M Jones: If you're concerned that your client is going to say, Well, i'm going to shop around. How do you run a meaningful conversation in your early consultation. That helps them understand. They're already in the right place. Right Here's the other thing. Here's the other thing. Phil, is. How many times
David Avrin: do people known objections? Because you've been in business for a long time for everybody listening or watching this. You've been in business. You know what they that they don't say it, but they mentally check you off as unqualified because they make an assumption. If you can get ahead of that, and saying, Listen! So many people in this industry, you know, do blank and blank. Here's what we do differently right because they're not all going to say it. Sometimes we can preempt even the thought or the conclusion in their mind by addressing that kind of a situation up front
Phil M Jones: without question, and it's more relevant today than ever. You know, buyers are looking to be more educated before making a decision.
Phil M Jones: We now live in many marketplaces, where, on the face of things. Everybody is doing the same thing.
Phil M Jones: For example, do a lot of work in the real estate industry, and the average consumer believes as long as you get a license, and you've been local. When you've been doing this for a period of time. Well just about everything is equal other than the
Phil M Jones: If you could learn to just ask simple, prefacing questions like, Well, what is your experience of working with a professional real estate agent
Phil M Jones: mit ctl? And guess what happens is, most people either share a ancient experience or own up to the fact. They have little to no experience which allows you to say things like well would it help if I walked you through all of your different options, so you could make a more informed decision as to what type of agent you might like one hundred
Phil M Jones: right? Look at the intentionality of those word choices when I say, what is your experience of working with a professional real estate agent.
Phil M Jones: I've just suggested that not all real estate agents, a professional couldn't. The same thing exist in our world when somebody is inquiring about David averin as a speaker at their event. If you said, Well, what is your experience of working with a paid professional speaker?
Phil M Jones: Instantly had them realized that this is not something you're looking for for exposure.
Phil M Jones: Right? Right? This is your profession.
Phil M Jones: When they say things back to that, You know we work with professional speakers every single year. We book people like Barack Obama. We put people like Bren a brown. We put people like Gee, I mean we had Oprah one year. Are you worried about them not finding your fee. No,
Phil M Jones: no, no, no; But if they say things back like well, when it's the first time that we've hired externally is that we, Historically, I've had people from inside the organization and sponsors, and now we're looking to level up. You've got a completely different talk track that comes next,
Phil M Jones: because you've now got a duty to be able to educate them on the landscape of professional speaking,
David Avrin: as opposed to your place within that landscape. Every was so important today. So I apologize. So there's what's so important about what you're doing today, and i'd like you to address this, because I think you've begun to do so is is the realization that so many people make either assumptions or decisions
David Avrin: before they're contacting the final, The final um competitors, right? We've done that. We've weeded out people online. Uh we, We've made assumptions that at the end, as you said, sort of all things are equal. Everybody's the same. So now it's down to price.
David Avrin: How do we preempt that maybe farther upstream, where we're not part of the conversation?
Phil M Jones: Well, there's things you can do in in in marketing and and and preventative work. And and you talk extensively about this, and people like Mark, is Sheridan and his work around, They ask you answer, etc. Is a lot of stuff that you can do to be able to educate consumers ahead of time. But I tell you a really interesting conversation. I think every independent business owner should be ready for
Phil M Jones: It's when the phone rings,
Phil M Jones: and whether it's a phone ring or a contact form kicking off, and the inquiry is consolidated to a version of How much do you charge?
Phil M Jones: Because I find it flabbergasting? The almost every industry is not equipped to be able to respond to that question with any level of integrity. What often happens is People's answer is a version of Well, it depends, and i'm not telling you
right,
Phil M Jones: which is highly evasive. And in the current world that we live in,
Phil M Jones: you'd be evasive. You just found a good reason for somebody to decide to not choose you,
Phil M Jones: or even the conversation right correct. Nor am I saying that you should say our prices are on our website. If you just click this tab, this link, this here, or a good luck, let me know if it fits right, is, we need to be able to educate these involved environments.
Phil M Jones: So, having a good response to the how much question is is useful.
Phil M Jones: I do a lot of work in the medical device space and
Phil M Jones: in particular in hearing care.
Phil M Jones: So this is audiology. This is the sale of hearing aids, etc. Quite often the question arrives to front desk, how much
Phil M Jones: front desks respond by saying, It depends.
Phil M Jones: Then they give a ridiculous range from here to here that doesn't help people and then hang up the phone,
Phil M Jones: which is weird. Let's take the understanding in this environment. Sometimes it takes people seven years to build the courage to go from. I'm thinking about, maybe doing something about this. And i'm now going to go on to be able to do it. They pick up the phone and say, Hey, I think in the buying I think you're my people. I'd quite like to be out of do business with you, and then we push them away often for a lifetime. Result in them not transacting, not making the upcraft. They're not making the decision.
Phil M Jones: If you respond with a clean answer, and then an easy to ask question, What you start again is clarity.
Phil M Jones: So in that scenario we can say we have a number of different options, which, hearing age would you like to buy?
David Avrin: What is almost everybody say back to that. Well, I don't know which ones you have right,
Phil M Jones: and we say, well, neither do we. At this point we don't know what's right for you at this point either, and instantly we we create clarity of the fact that a consultation is required.
Phil M Jones: It sounds to me that, like what you're asking is, is, what could you expect to spend if we find out the hearing aids of the solution for you, and that you'd like to better do business with us, and they're like. Yes, that's what i'm hoping to find out.
Phil M Jones: Well, answer me this. When was the last time you had your hearing tested?
Phil M Jones: Well, I Haven't had it done for the last five years. Okay? Well, it sounds like the best place to start there is with a comprehensive hearing test, and the all that we're going to charge you for. That is blank. Hoo. That sounds affordable. Okay, And that's scheduled for you next week and you Tuesday, Wednesday, when you should best for Wednesday. Be good for the morning or afternoon, when's good.
Phil M Jones: One morning it'd be ideal for someone like ten, thirty, and thirty Sounds great. Well, at ten thirty you're gonna meet Dr. So And so Dr. Simon has been doing this for this period of time. There it's highly experience blah blah blah. If you find out that, hearing aids at the right solution, we are entirely independent. We have access to the complete suite of all of the products that are available,
Phil M Jones: and i'll tell you what you could do. You could find a solution for the little one thousand five hundred bucks, but you could go over ten thousand. If you're feeling brave.
Phil M Jones: But most importantly, we need to find out what's true for you right now, and good news is, we're going to point the book for you with up to someone. So at ten, thirty Am. Next week,
Phil M Jones: What other questions can I help you with today?
David Avrin: You know what I think one of the most brilliant things about the approach is in doing so. Not only have you sort of engaged them where they're feeling like they're led through a process which is really important to determine the price. But you've also differentiated yourself from others who have
David Avrin: come out with a price or a discount one or something online with field line. That prescription without diagnosis is mal practice. You diminished everyone else who quickly had an answer. Who didn't have the right questions. It's same thing applies with financial services, with so many other industries as well,
Phil M Jones: and my rally Christ. So everybody listing in right now is, if you're going to say what's one conversation that matters more than most. Get ready to respond to every version of the how much question that you're being asked,
Phil M Jones: and if you can just dial that one up, you're in good shape, then think about like the leadership conversation you having is how many small business owners have regular huddles or team meetings,
Phil M Jones: the happen religiously. But Don't deliver the outcome. You're looking for
Phil M Jones: how you getting people bought into the mission bought into the changing behavior sold on what you're looking for them to get to do differently. Could you take sequences of words from exactly what to say? Pre purpose? Your conversations more effectively, and get people bought into the way you want to operate this week. That was different to the way they operated last week. The answer that question is yes,
Phil M Jones: every moment of influence is catalyzed with a conversation.
Phil M Jones: If you think about every situation that you remember intently as a as a pivotal moment in your own career.
Phil M Jones: It was catalyzed by a conversation absolutely. What you remember might not be the conversation. What you remember might be what happened. But
Phil M Jones: But what happened happened because of a conversation.
David Avrin: Right? Well, let me ask another question,
David Avrin: and oftentimes it is, you know, the catalyst was a conversation, but it wasn't necessarily a good conversation, you know, I think. Probably Probably not. Probably I mean, I think, for me, what makes your approaches so significant effective is the dichotomy of how we have traditionally done it, which isn't necessarily disastrous it's just less effective than it could be. And have you found in in the consulting work. I know you certify others to to to teach what it is that you teach as well
David Avrin: in in identifying the problem. Um, the the the less effective language and contrasting it with what's more effective and taking through those scenarios, Is that the way to make it to create those aha moments and those light bulbs going on over their head
Phil M Jones: is people want to know the right way to do something.
We've created conditioning that people believe that there is a right way to do something in a wrong way to do something.
Phil M Jones: And what too many people have forgotten is that the thing we should truly be focused on is what is the right result? I. The result that we predetermined is the outcome that we're looking for, and that can be different for different people in different moments when you're working towards the right result as opposed to doing it the right way. Everything changes.
Phil M Jones: So in the work. The exists in our consulting body of work or working with guides is, we get them away from focusing on what are the precise words to achieve
Phil M Jones: the precise words to use and more about.
Phil M Jones: Let's increase the level of intense about what we're looking to try and achieve from this meaningful conversation.
Phil M Jones: And can we develop some levels of success around this, and sometimes it's evidence collection. Sometimes it's shifting somebody's perspective. Sometimes it's helping somebody see something from a different point of view, and then sometimes It's getting somebody to take action.
Phil M Jones: And what people are looking for, David too often is is they want to win the sale. They want to win the day they want to win the game, and the trouble with focusing on winning is that if you're the winner,
Phil M Jones: there's a winner and a loser
Phil M Jones: right,
Phil M Jones: which means the other person feels like a loser when you win, which often isn't the result we're looking for in today's world. It was when we think Glenn Gary, Glenn Ross, or Wolf, of Wall Street, or any of those other vulgar sales celebrations. Instead, we should be looking for situations where everybody wins,
Phil M Jones: and by shifting the intent to say, Well, my intent is that again, greater understanding. My intent is that I take the role to educate the consumer about multiple options. My intent is to help them understand where we sit amongst those differentiators. My intent is to make them feel heard. My intent is to make them feel understood. My intent is to, and we create a list of things that we intend. You write different questions and different tool tracks.
David Avrin: Right? What does that also? Um connect with, uh the necessity of of a belief in what it is that we're trying to sell, even if it's an idea, if it's a behavior, if it's a if it's a a a rule for your family and your kids, we really got to believe in what we're doing? Because then there, then it is the win-win, if we know that what we're selling or offering or providing
David Avrin: um really will benefit them or at least benefit the dynamic, or whatever is, we're trying to change or or grow. Then it's a lot easier to pull out that those tools from the sack to to achieve that, and then there are no losers, and that doesn't mean. Every situation is great, But But
David Avrin: and and I talking about this on stage, I said, do you believe that i'm what I what I believe in what I'm saying. And and the answer is, yes, because because I believe in what we're doing. Does that translate as Well, in terms of that that win, win.
Phil M Jones: Yeah. And I think there are three things here, David, that that are worthy of everybody coming away with an understanding of this conversation, and and to echo your point, there is quite simply, if you're not convinced, you cannot convince.
Phil M Jones: So if you do not believe with absolute certainty that what you're asking the other person to do is write for them. Please don't expect them to believe it.
Phil M Jones: There's the first thing now. Secondly, is. I'm often asked to describe selling, and I've through the years I've I've got my own dictionary definition of what selling is, and and selling is earning the right to make a recommendation.
Phil M Jones: Well, that means to me is that you should never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever invite anybody to do anything unless you can say these words first, and the words you should look to be able to say first of the words because of the fact that you said
Phil M Jones: mit ctl. And because of the fact that you said blank, blank and blank. Then, for those reasons, what i'd recommend is blank, blank, and blank. It's an easy framework to understand. It's a harder framework to implement, because you have to have done the dig in two
Phil M Jones: to be able to insert the words in the blind line complaints right because of the fact that you said that what you want is for this to last a long time, and you don't want to have to reserv it, and what you're trying to be able to do is to do the best for your family. For those reasons. What i'd recommend is you buy the best in technology available today? Sure it's a premium price, But it does come with a twenty-five year guarantee. Yada Yada Yada right? So the recommendation could be for their reasons and not yours.
Phil M Jones: So first thing is, if you're not convinced, you cannot convince. Second thing is to remember the selling is earning the right to make a recommendation. And third is the responsibility of our job description of sales, professionals, and as sales professionals. In my mind, our job description is to understand that we are professional mind maker. Uppers
Phil M Jones: Indecision is the enemy not embellishing the option of Yes,
Phil M Jones: maybe is the enemy.
Phil M Jones: See our role as professional sales people is to help people make their mind up.
Phil M Jones: And the second you realize that that is your duty is to help people make smart decisions, help them make the right decisions, move them out of indecision, Remove procrastination.
Phil M Jones: You can do a better job of that role that results in you getting people to say yes. More often as opposed to thinking, Your role is to convince people to buy
Phil M Jones: your role is to help people make their mind up and make a smart decision about a predetermined outcome they already decided they wanted.
David Avrin: And how important is it to pre-qualify the people you're talking to? Because this doesn't work on everybody doesn't work on the people who are who are the hard sell who don't have the financial resources who may not be in a position, logistically or chronologically, to make a decision. At this time.
Phil M Jones: It works with all those people, but sometimes what it works is that you pre-qualify somebody to help them realize they're in the wrong shop. Let's use the hearing. Aid example is, you could find out very quickly that when you say to somebody, We've got solutions from one thousand five hundred through to ten thousand now, like I haven't got fifty cents.
Phil M Jones: You should be able to say well like at this point in time one of the things that you might want to be able to go out and resources This benefits system or this insurance download, or Here's some other complimentary advice that might help in some of your circumstances without you need to put your hand in your pocket for a penny,
Phil M Jones: and I think our duty is business leaders today is to have an answer that is valuable to just about every inquiry that you could have, and sometimes they have commercial up there for you. Sometimes they just have human benefit to the other person,
Phil M Jones: and A, and that that to me is a change as business leaders today the
Phil M Jones: that we do. O, every inquiry, some form of value exchange, even if that value is here, is a tip sheet.
Phil M Jones: Here is a blog article. Here is something you can read to be able to self discover, and and that analogy we both use Often the prescription for diagnosis is male. Practice is is essential to understand that sometimes we diagnose that somebody was in the wrong shop.
Phil M Jones: They might love what you've got. They might love what you're about. They might be keen to do business with you, but if they don't meet the criteria to be a client,
Phil M Jones: then you should lose zero sleep over that. Just provide them a simple solution that's helpful,
David Avrin: sure. And and also, I think, an important thing to note for audiences. This is not something that comes quickly or easily. It's probably one of the reasons why you're one of the most what the most. Listen to. Book nonfiction book, Because people revisit this again and again, it takes practice. It doesn't mean that we've memorized the script, but that we've created this tool bag, this this quiver with enough arrows that we can pull with the right situations at the right time.
Phil M Jones: A. And and the place you're out on the journey changes, David, too. We've had the gift of being able to listen to some of our professional speaker. Friends on, repeat for a decade in war,
Phil M Jones: somebody that I admire hugely, i'm sure you do, too, is is Scott Mccain. Now I've listened to Scott, share the same story more than a dozen times,
Phil M Jones: and each time I hear that story it talks to me differently, because i'm at a different point in my career. I'm. A different point in my life. I'm at a different point in my business. The speech could have been more perfect the same. I don't know whether it was or wasn't, but I do know is I took something different from it at that point,
Phil M Jones: and when it comes to mastering sales language, you're often trying to solve a new problem. If I meet a brand new real estate agent, they're like, How do I get appointments. How do I get in front of people? If I meet a three, five year tenured real estate agent that Well, how do I stand out versus my competition.
Phil M Jones: If I meet a decade old, you know, veteran within the industry they're like, Well, how do I find my vigor again? How do I remember how to be at the hustle when things have got hard like, How do I compete against these young ripper snappers?
Phil M Jones: It's which lens am I applying it towards today that is relevant towards a predetermined outcome that i'm looking to achieve today. And when you give yourself the gift of being able to live in student or rookie mode for your entire life. You're on a perpetual journey of growth, and I don't believe the persuasive language will ever be a skill
Phil M Jones: the is not required, and the more and more and more I get sucked into people asking me to look at their Ai
Phil M Jones: to uh give consideration to how chat bots can provide services in this area, or how we can utilize tools that could allow us to be able to have persuasive conversations with other human beings is actually built on artificial intelligence. The more confirmation I get
Phil M Jones: that this needs people to do this job.
David Avrin: Yeah, absolutely. And it's certainly for the next thirty years. Whatever my suggestion, pick up the book, it's. It's a remarkable book exactly what to say, and of course, exactly how to sell. But here's thing. Ignore everything that you ever learned in school. Every other rule right all over the damn book,
Phil M Jones: do you? Or the pages? Take a highlight or highlight things. Don't loan them to your friends. They can buy their own damn copy. But this is one of those books that you you do your the pages you throw in um post it notes and write all over. It's your book by the your own examples, like even just decide right. Now, the there are three conversations that matter more to you in your life than any other like. Choose the the how much conversation. Choose the the huddle conversation with your team. Choose a conversation that matters with a family member, a friend
Phil M Jones: or spouse, and say, i'm just dialing up these three, and then look at every example sequence of words in the book, and say, Can I write my own examples towards those three critical conversations,
Phil M Jones: and let this live outside the book and in your world and in your real application, and see what you can do to be more influential in the moments that you've decided matter in your world, one hundred and fifty.
David Avrin: Yeah. Incredibly important in life in business. I'm going to make it a commitment right now that i'm going to have you on once to year, and we're going to continue the conversation. We're going to update it every single time. Big thanks to my guess, Phil and John's fill. If people want to get in touch with you. How do they find you
Phil M Jones: uh two websites worth the alert? One is Phil M. Jones, dot Com. Also we're building out a body of work at exactly what to say. Dot com. So if you care about critical conversations, you care about the power spoken word, we got dozens of articles from a variety of guest experts that are contributing on exactly what to say. Dot com Come, check us out there if you want to continue the conversation. Instagram's best place to find me, and I am at Phil M. Jones, Uk.
David Avrin: There you go outstanding, hey? Thanks so much. Hang on because we'll talk on the other side of this. Want to remind everybody that first of all, thanks for listening. Thanks for watching for those of you. Watch the video version. Um, he's a very handsome man. Trust me. You want to watch the video version of this as well. My new book. You can pick up this online and everywhere the morning huddle powerful customer experience conversations to wake you up and shake you up and win more business. Be sure to like this podcast subscribe and leave a comment that's important as well.
David Avrin: And then click the little bell, icon you'll get notifications of future episodes when those come about as well. Uh, you can learn more about my keynote. Speaking like consulting a David averin dot com once again. Big thanks to my guest, Phil M. Jones,
David Avrin: this is the customer experience advantage. Podcast. I'm. David after and be good.